Rotation/Catch/Kick Synchronization and Timing Variants

[sclim]

Originally Posted by Mushroomfloat

so basically the highside arms sets your drop and catch under the water as it comes over (from about halfway through the recovery as it nears shoulder height.

Are you saying that as the highside arm passes the shoulder on its forward recovery trajectory, that is the moment that your underwater leading hand starts the finger drop and arm catch? If I understood you correctly, that seems very early -- much earlier even than Tom was referring to when he flagged the Shinji and Terry videos as revealing those demonstrators were beginning the catch even a moment before the highside fingertip entry.

Originally Posted by sclim

Just so I understand:

When you said you were "over-extending" (and then you fixed it), and with your other explanation of years of "long stroking"

did you mean

1) the point of entry of the fingertips of the high side hand was too far in front of your head line (so you fixed it by moving the entry point closer to your head)

or

2) the stretching and extension of the fingertip was allowed to go too far past the elbow of the other arm before the other (previously low side and leading) arm catch started

or

3) you were referring to the stretching effort of your spear only after your hand entered, meaning your stretching effort was from the shoulder all the way to the fingertips, but you found later that stretching the muscles only to the elbow kept the forearm and hand muscles more relaxed.

I think you meant 1), but then I didn't understand

"When i foud best was to focus on only extending to the elbow which keeps the forearm and hand relaxed and useable"

and

"I ended the session with a nice discovery of "riding the elbows" from entry to extention which added stability and all round relaxedness"

Please explain the parts in bold, as I'm not clear on what you mean.

Hi
i meant 1 & 3

predominately 3

I favoured the straight arm swinger style so i was entering very far out and also extending to max stretch

but i found by dialing it all back it was much more efficient and less taxing
albeit not as quick but i can keep it up for longer

Yes extending to the elbows means deliver the arm with the hip and extend underwater to what the hip rolling down will allow and not stretch the shoulder right up to the cheek like your reaching for a high shelf.
This allows the hips / torso rotation to control the stroke so im not swimming from the arms.

&
Riding the elbows is something i found last night when you enter wrist the elbow lean on the elbow as it enters the water it gave stability and i rode the elbow on to the decent and catch

Originally Posted by sclim

Are you saying that as the highside arm passes the shoulder on its forward recovery trajectory, that is the moment that your underwater leading hand starts the finger drop and arm catch? If I understood you correctly, that seems very early -- much earlier even than Tom was referring to when he flagged the Shinji and Terry videos as revealing those demonstrators were beginning the catch even a moment before the highside fingertip entry.

Yes
you will feel downward pressure on the lowside arm and the recovery arm nears shoulder height
if you dont doggedly try to fight it by sticking to catch up stroke and allow the lowside arm to decend you with find it will automatically make a catch which is ready at the time of highside entry

You allow the lowside arm to descend under pressure from the highside arm

The actual catch anchor lock on is in time with rotation and entry

Just play about with allowing the lowside arm to be affected by the highside arm coming over and you'll see what i mean

[sclim]

Originally Posted by Mushroomfloat

Hi
i meant 1 & 3

predominately 3

I favoured the straight arm swinger style so i was entering very far out and also extending to max stretch

but i found by dialing it all back it was much more efficient and less taxing
albeit not as quick but i can keep it up for longer

Yes extending to the elbows means deliver the arm with the hip and extend underwater to what the hip rolling down will allow and not stretch the shoulder right up to the cheek like your reaching for a high shelf.
This allows the hips / torso rotation to control the stroke so im not swimming from the arms.

&
Riding the elbows is something i found last night when you enter wrist the elbow lean on the elbow as it enters the water it gave stability and i rode the elbow on to the decent and catch

OK, so you are putting weight on your elbow as the entry reaches wrist level.

Would this be something like the feeling of transferring your hip rolling and forward screwing motion momentum into a downward weight feeling on your elbow?

Extending to the elbows here:

https://youtu.be/z59s13BVDrE

"like a little choo choo train.....like a little choo choo motion" lolz

[sclim]

Originally Posted by Mushroomfloat

You allow the lowside arm to descend under pressure from the highside arm

The actual catch anchor lock on is in time with rotation and entry

Just play about with allowing the lowside arm to be affected by the highside arm coming over and you'll see what i mean

OK I think I get you now. It's a little earlier than I was used to, quite a bit earlier, actually, but it demonstrates to me what a wide variation that people successfully can do in catch synchronization time, or body rotation/entry/kick synchronization for that matter.

I have to try it out.

Originally Posted by sclim

OK, so you are putting weight on your elbow as the entry reaches wrist level.

Would this be something like the feeling of transferring your hip rolling and forward screwing motion momentum into a downward weight feeling on your elbow?

Yeah the wrist went in and as the elbow went in i leant on it, being as i was delivering the arms from the hip rotation then yes i was probably leaning on it because my high side hip was rolling down.

The whole thing kept me high in the water and very stable rotation probably about 40-45 degrees

Originally Posted by sclim

OK I think I get you now. It's a little earlier than I was used to, quite a bit earlier, actually, but it demonstrates to me what a wide variation that people successfully can do in catch synchronization time, or body rotation/entry/kick synchronization for that matter.

I have to try it out.

Yes basically you gotta get that lowside arm deeper before catch unless you want to do an extreme EVF and being as applying force is optimal with arm just in front of shoulder at catch then i cant see any reason to hold it out straight fighting the pressure from the highside arm unless im looking to do an ian thorpe EVF
(but if you watch him closely his lowside catch it pretty mich with rotation and well back towards the shoulder)

so rather than thrusting forward in a big extention it was more side to side rocking and extend to the elbow
hip rotation controlling / turning over the arms