Total Immersion Forums  

Go Back   Total Immersion Forums > Freestyle
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 03-01-2014
Danny Danny is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,442
Danny
Default different ways to initiate body rotation

This thread actually got started in the thread "The Difference a TI Workshop can Make", but it's off subject so I thought I should get out of the way on that thread and start a new one here.

The subject arose for me in a dispute with Charles, who claimed that one can body rotate without "anchoring" the rotation by using a kick or a recovery arm. To prove his point, he posted this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfJ-slsH93s

The idea (explained for my viewpoint, not Charles') is to bend slightly at the hips and make a crooked axis. The hips always settle at the bottom, but if you keep changing the bend, you can initiate a rotation. The questions I asked him are: What's wrong with initiating rotation using a kick or a recovering arm? Why would we need this trick and how would we integrate it into our stroke? Here is his response (you can see more in the other thread).


Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier View Post
There are a few forces involved in allowing the rotation performed as such (in an isolated way). When you look at a swimmer "starting off" this motion, very often you'll see that the first few rotation will be smaller (as if the pendulum hasn't had time to gain full left-right-left-right momentum). If you want to experience this by your own, it's easy. You don't need to do the full IR. Just wear a pull, stay still, and start "rocking" left right left right. You'll see that your amplitude will increase after a few swings.

You're basically asking if there's a twisting component on top of the documented and well accepted body roll in swimming the freestyle. "Twisting" is probably a poor word choice. What I mean here, is twisting in a way that breaks frontal axis. The answer can be seen by observing freestyle swimmers from bird's view. You always see a bit of fish tailing (at a high level), possibly created (in part) by the serape effect (oblique muscle chain starting from right shoulder down to left hip, and left shoulder down to right hip). It's far more pronounced at backstroke. Isolated rotation therefore involves a little bit of this. This was documented by a team of researchers at l'University of Manitoba, their works are available in the reference I added in my first reply to your question. I think that a bit of this is also explained by bending a bit at the hips.

The visible, or I should say the obvious portion of the sculling motion can in no way contribute to body roll. Timing wise, it doesn't really make sense. That obvious portion is the outward sweep. However, after the hand sweeps outward, it must come back inward. This inward motion does act as an anchor point to facilitate the rotation. We're aware of that. But we don't know how to teach it LOL (as ridiculous as it might sound). Even if we did, people would be overdoing it. So we prefer not to mention about it at all. I don't believe that this inward motion alone can create enough support to justify alone, the body roll though. And like I said, some intermediate level folks who don't do this inward well (timing and motion wise) still manage the Isolated Rotation.

I think this view here better shows why sculling can't contribute to BR. Simply stated, from the time the R-hand starts sweeping out, and the time it finished, the R-side of the body remains up. It is already up when the hand starts sweeping out, and it remains up. However, this view also clearly shows the recovery. And whilst R-hand is recovering inward, there the body is still rolling, therefore benefiting from the inward sweep. Without a doubt, as we can feel it. We know it's there. So in sequence, hip drive (serape? possibly), entire body side falling (gravity), then the hand sweeps inward (support).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8n_rqKsqU_w
So this afternoon, I was working on my single-arm freestyle drill, which I like because it forces me to use more core body rotation, since I don't have the help of a recovering arm on the other side, and I started to see your point Charles. While doing this drill, I cautiously started introducing a kink at my hips to see if I could relieve myself of some of the effort I needed from my kick to initiate the rotation. To my surprise, it seemed to work! Mind you, I have no idea what my body was really doing, the only evidence I had was that I no longer felt that I had to kick as hard to initiate the rotation and, in fact, I started to feel as if I have a little more control over the timing of the rotation in this way.

So the next step was to try this in regular freestyle, and in the first lap, it worked amazingly well, in that my kick became much milder but I still had great body rotation. Unfortunately, on successive laps, I became so focussed on this issue that other problems arose in my stroke, and I had to back off.

So here are my very tentative conclusions: First, this method can be used in conjunction with kicking and arm recovery to gain additional control over the timing of the rotation and reduce the need for a kick. Second, I may have been doing this to a certain extent all along, at least sometimes, but I didn't realize it. If so, knowing the purpose of this motion is a great aid in doing it more effectively. Last, but not least, I really don't know if what I experienced was what I thought it was. All I know is that I could back off my kick and felt I had somewhat better control of my rotation.

Any thoughts or comments?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 03-01-2014
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,244
CharlesCouturier
Default

Comments?

I was working with a elite this AM.

50m NAD-2bk, no hip drive. Body was creating more drag as a result of torsion. We ain't kidding on Sunday afts. We all would rather be elsewhere. So time clock in one hand, camera in the other. Resulting time 1:05 (arrrrgggrrrr). I mentioned about the hips. But since mentioning is rarely enough (even with faster folks), we go with 50m IR (that's with the pull, so he can NO LONGER initiate the rotation with his legs). Then another 50m NAD-2b. Hip drive is there, resulting time 57sec. And at that level, it's quite rare that you progress by 8 full seconds in a 50m.

But again Danny, this is me. BR can indeed be triggered by the kick. But my interest (especially with this guy) is to elevate the rev. And then the 2bk style much change a bit, and I find that driving the whole body instead of letting the leg triggering the BR is better at higher rev. It is really a matter of personal taste I think.

However yes, at your level, those who commit to this sort of work often have a "wow amazing feeling" when they switch back to full stroke.

The analogy I often use is a very simple one. When someone breaks his spine. Paramedics show up. You know the way they tend to rotate the whole body in a block, ensuring that no torsion is done. Feet legs hips shoulder head all in the same time. Because in this case breaking the frontal axis may result into breaking the spine's medula. This is what I am after with all this. I don't think this hip drive, when you consider the magnitude of the forces involved whilst pulling can play a significant role in the power output per se (I'd be exposing myself quite a lot stating this without proper testing), but just the idea of knowing that this results into a cleaner br, it's enough for me. One can disagree with my process, but I think it's undeniable that if you add well controlled hip drive to the br.

Here, that's Shells, great 2b-kicker. I'd put here on the same level as Manaudou. She doesn't have the same power, but she creates less drag. If you follow my "mouse" movements, I think you'll understand the message. I simply point out what moves first.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWkwVQSSD1k

So again, this is a path I'm following mostly with higher level swimmers, in order to facilitate increasing the rate. In short, they're asked to perform the Isolated Rotation/NAD-2bk at target rate. If they can get the body to rotate without the legs, and with a 2bk without the arms, I assume it can only be easier when you add the arms. It is really that simple. Right now we aim at reaching 1:50/100m at NAD-2B / Isolated Rotation, at 80rpm. But we're far behind schedule, and it turns out to be much more difficult than expected. Beginners to Intermediate, I only teach this through a class called Perfecting your freestyle stroke, and they attempt it for a try. I only allocated 2 classes, which isn't enough.

Here, one of my biggest pride, NAD-Full progression, 2bk. Lots of work though, kick is too wide, and too deep. Not streamlined enough. Worst! Lack of hip drive. You can see. But that thing is quite challenging for balance/streamline. It's an experience to say the least.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KdpUTIuw70

Last edited by CharlesCouturier : 03-02-2014 at 01:31 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 03-02-2014
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,244
CharlesCouturier
Default

Humm, sorry, I really I didn't actually answer your questions that well. I got carried I guess..

So here are my very tentative conclusions: First, this method can be used in conjunction with kicking and arm recovery to gain additional control over the timing of the rotation and reduce the need for a kick. Second, I may have been doing this to a certain extent all along, at least sometimes, but I didn't realize it. If so, knowing the purpose of this motion is a great aid in doing it more effectively. Last, but not least, I really don't know if what I experienced was what I thought it was. All I know is that I could back off my kick and felt I had somewhat better control of my rotation.

Yes it could be that we sometimes look different than we think we do. I don't think I've seen you swimming so I don't know what sort of swimmer you have. Some exaggerate too much, some do it by emotion I think. So keep your metrics (whatever they are) in mind. Of course, if you're talking single-arm drill with the other on the side, and that you felt better, then it's obvious that you probably look better. Because this is an awful drill in term of synchro and balance. It makes you feel real bad. If you feel better, you probably look better. And usually, you swim much better after. Especially when you do the progression posted before. It gets your stroke symmetrical as you go no arm, r-arm, l-arm, full stroke. When you reach the last 25m, you feel awesome, and you often look better than usual (from the outside). The nad was first created to serve this purpose. It was a simple answer to a logistics challenge. I wanted kick only, l-arm etc and you can't leave your kick board on the other end of the pool, so I tried to find the best fit legs only, so that it serves several purposes as well. And then I got my full progression which I tried over 100m (25m each) up to 4000m (1k each, so nad for a kilo, single arm for 2kilos, and the best kilo full stroke of my life ;-)

And yes this contributes to the br, it allows more flexibility as for kick timing, which can occur almost at the same time (like Shells' clip before, with her it's hips very very slightly before) or even delay the kick. I used to do this a lot when I was younger, in my dps development ages. At low rate, I used to play delaying the kick at the best possible moment to not loose speed in between the strokes. Was just a game, not a statement.

Last edited by CharlesCouturier : 03-02-2014 at 01:51 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 03-02-2014
Danny Danny is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,442
Danny
Default

Charles, thanks for your comments. I don't do your NAD progression, because I found it too difficult. Instead I worked out one that seems easy enough for me and is very helpful. First, one-arm with a fist right 50 yd, then left, then two arms with fists for 100 yds., then two arms open hand 50 yd, then 300 yd open hand. Talk about overgliding, my one arm drills are the extreme of that, but I want to be able to see and study my spear and catch and play around with timing, so by slowing it down I get to do that. Since I started doing this, I've dropped about 30 s off of my 300 yd times, which is mind boggling to me, and I still have the feeling that I haven't played this game for all it's worth yet.

Monday, I'll get back in the pool and start playing around with the hip rotation again. I have to be careful to not load myself up with too many focal points. I'm still trying to ingrain the progress I've made so far.

Thanks again.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are Off
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 12:26 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.