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  #81  
Old 12-09-2013
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post

Charles version, and my version...are two different things for two different purposes.

There is no good or bad, correct or incorrect.

I prefer non stroking arm to remain molded to the side without sculling for momentum as this can cover up things you're trying to discover with the rest of the body movements.

Coversly the sculling can add to understanding about how momentum can carry over into the next movement of the cycle.

Both can work, but know what and why you are doing what you are doing.
I tend to agree here. For example, setting the correct way (and amplitude) of how to perform the sculling is something that's difficult (at best), even for strong intermediate level with direct coaching (ie, 1-2-1) access. Very often, and that assuming that the gesture is correctly timed (which is not often the case), the amplitude of the gesture is much to wide, making it act as an incomplete pull more than as a simple final sweep. Only advanced level really get the gesture right and rapidly.

Here's an example, using a strong intermediate level guy (having a pb over 1500 of 21min, and a pb over a full olympic distance triathlon of 1h57min):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8vn_Ii0z5c

It was shot yesterday, and part of the session was aimed at fixing this. However (for what it's worth), I'm also into simple single-arm drill. This is what I teach most of the time I guess (through our program). And there the main difference between our approaches is that we promote continuous momentum. In short, I never teach the sculling motion as part of Single Arm drill works, but rather as part of NAD work. I save this for those with whom I have a private coaching relationship of some sort.

Last edited by CharlesCouturier : 12-09-2013 at 05:23 PM.
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  #82  
Old 12-09-2013
Danny Danny is offline
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In my case, I think Suzanne has a very valid point. I have tended to treat your different teaching philosophies as a smorgasbord, from which I can take a little here and a little there... This may be getting me into trouble. Here is my take on where I am: If I want to focus on momentum, I should probably have my stroke dynamics down much better than I do. I also need to learn a 6bk, which requires mastering the NAD. This seems to be a very challenging exercise for me. So I suspect that Charles' approach is too advanced for me. Not sure if Suzanne's approach to single arm drills works with a 2bk, but I am going to assume it does and try to stick with that next time I'm in the pool. I need to get the timing of my hip rotation better coordinated with my spear and catch, and this is what I would like to be addressing.
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  #83  
Old 12-09-2013
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Originally Posted by Danny View Post
Suzanne, in your version of the one-armed drills do you recommend a 2bk or a 6bk? Get well quick, we need you!
Many options in order of difficulty IMO
Flutter kick
6bk
2bk


because I like doing this as a slow patient and thoughtful exercise, not stroking until I'm ready to go with it, an easy flutter kick is the best way to start...however prior to me starting the stroke I pause my flutter, glide for a moment then time a single kick to pair with the rotation...so this is an intiation of a 2bk process.

To do a true 2bk with a single arm swim is very tricky because there is no "extra" time for thought and processing...which can be a valuable part of doing deliberate drills.

The last thing I would want is for someone to rush the stroking just so they can keep momentum with a two beat kick.

A 6 beat kick can be easier because there can be alittle more foward movement between strokes...but then it still demands that you stroke when the kick arrives at it's next "top" downbeat.

Does that make sense?
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Suzanne Atkinson, MD
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USA Paralympic Triathlon Coach
Coach of 5 time USA Triathlon Triathlete of the Year, Kirsten Sass
Steel City Endurance, LTD
Fresh Freestyle

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  #84  
Old 12-09-2013
Danny Danny is offline
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Thanks, Suzanne, that helps. This morning I was trying to coordinate my 6bk with my spearing in the one-armed drill and failing dismally. I think I now understand a little more about the 6bk (it's like a waltz, where the hips rotate only on the third kick) but still this is a challenge for me. So a flutter kick with a pause and then a consciously timed kick in concert with the spear sounds like a very good starting strategy.

This morning I found myself trying to replicate the bobbing motion (if ever so slightly) in two arm that I feel in one arm stroking. I think what I started to do was a very slight weight shift: Shift forward as you start the catch, then slightly backward as your recovering arm comes out of the water. This maybe replicates a weight shift that I notice in one arm, because when the recovering arm comes out of the water in one arm it is further back and gives rise to this shift. As the recovering arm moves forward, the weight also shifts forward. Any thoughts on this? Is this something I should avoid doing? It certainly seems to help create the easy breathing that I get from the one-arm drill and I still had a nice low SPL even with this.

Last edited by Danny : 12-09-2013 at 08:45 PM.
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  #85  
Old 12-09-2013
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny View Post
Thanks, Suzanne, that helps. This morning I was trying to coordinate my 6bk with my spearing in the one-armed drill and failing dismally. I think I now understand a little more about the 6bk (it's like a waltz, where the hips rotate only on the third kick) but still this is a challenge for me. So a flutter kick with a pause and then a consciously timed kick in concert with the spear sounds like a very good starting strategy.

This morning I found myself trying to replicate the bobbing motion (if ever so slightly) in two arm that I feel in one arm stroking. I think what I started to do was a very slight weight shift: Shift forward as you start the catch, then slightly backward as your recovering arm comes out of the water. This maybe replicates a weight shift that I notice in one arm, because when the recovering arm comes out of the water in one arm it is further back and gives rise to this shift. As the recovering arm moves forward, the weight also shifts forward. Any thoughts on this? Is this something I should avoid doing? It certainly seems to help create the easy breathing that I get from the one-arm drill and I still had a nice low SPL even with this.

Hmmm...ideally there will be mimimal bobbing...up and down displacement of water would seem to cause drag. but knowing how and why your arm movements create up and down movement is important so taht you know how to get rid of them, and also to take advantage of the inevitable up and down movemen tthat occurs.

I'm fairly certain that Phelps "loping" stroke is nothing more than him taking advantage of natural actions of gravity on his non breathing strokes. He knows where gravity tugs him into hte water and goes with it and knows where he needs to add a little boost to his bouyancy (for breathing) If you look at his arm position during a breath on a breathing stroke, but all means it should be considered "wrong", but it's a natural and productive response to his up and down movement.

Does that help?

In otehrwords, don't try to magnifiy it, try to minimize it, but know where it is.
__________________
Suzanne Atkinson, MD
Level 3 USAT Coach
USA Paralympic Triathlon Coach
Coach of 5 time USA Triathlon Triathlete of the Year, Kirsten Sass
Steel City Endurance, LTD
Fresh Freestyle

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  #86  
Old 12-09-2013
Danny Danny is offline
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Suzanne, thanks for your feedback. It seems to me that there are two possibly conflicting issues here. One is that bobbing may introduce drag. The other is that, when you time your breathing to it, it can help. Finally, and I don't really understand why or how this happens, but the whole effect seems to introduce a rhythm into the stroke that feels good and helps make it more effortless.

There is always a danger of over-analyzing my stroke. That means that I start worrying about an issue that is really less important than other problems I may even be unaware of. If my SPL and tempo seem improved by this, then it is tempting to say that the up side outweighs the down side. At least for now...

One more thought: I can focus on trying to minimize or eliminate it, or I can focus on trying to exploit it to my advantage, but it is difficult to do both. So I will try not to exaggerate it, but I will also try to be aware of it and embrace it as an aid in breathing and rhythm. Hopefully that's the right compromise.

Last edited by Danny : 12-09-2013 at 11:18 PM.
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  #87  
Old 12-10-2013
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny View Post
Suzanne, thanks for your feedback. It seems to me that there are two possibly conflicting issues here. One is that bobbing may introduce drag. The other is that, when you time your breathing to it, it can help. Finally, and I don't really understand why or how this happens, but the whole effect seems to introduce a rhythm into the stroke that feels good and helps make it more effortless.

There is always a danger of over-analyzing my stroke. That means that I start worrying about an issue that is really less important than other problems I may even be unaware of. If my SPL and tempo seem improved by this, then it is tempting to say that the up side outweighs the down side. At least for now...

One more thought: I can focus on trying to minimize or eliminate it, or I can focus on trying to exploit it to my advantage, but it is difficult to do both. So I will try not to exaggerate it, but I will also try to be aware of it and embrace it as an aid in breathing and rhythm. Hopefully that's the right compromise.
I think you'll sort it out. What hte one -armed drill with the bobbing does best is show you the proper timing. If you try to breath when you're udner water and bouyancy hasn't brought you up to air yet you are forced to push down to find the air. Or if you want to long to try to breath and youv'e already gone under...again...you're forced to do awkward things.

Finding where bouancy allows you to breath effortlessly on each arm and to each side shows you the proper timing. Adding up the timing in 2 armed breathing takes the benefit from each arm and adds them together.

Make any sense at all?
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Suzanne Atkinson, MD
Level 3 USAT Coach
USA Paralympic Triathlon Coach
Coach of 5 time USA Triathlon Triathlete of the Year, Kirsten Sass
Steel City Endurance, LTD
Fresh Freestyle

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  #88  
Old 12-10-2013
Danny Danny is offline
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Sounds like a good plan! I hope you're feeling better!
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  #89  
Old 12-10-2013
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Great thread! Thanks :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
...I'm fairly certain that Phelps "loping" stroke is nothing more than him taking advantage of natural actions of gravity on his non breathing strokes. He knows where gravity tugs him into hte water and goes with it and knows where he needs to add a little boost to his bouyancy (for breathing) If you look at his arm position during a breath on a breathing stroke, but all means it should be considered "wrong", but it's a natural and productive response to his up and down movement.

Does that help?

In otehrwords, don't try to magnifiy it, try to minimize it, but know where it is.
FWIW, for this eavesdropper your observations and advice are very helpful indeed. I really adore that Phelps clip, it's ousted Shinji's classic forn me, so I'll study it for those things you point out. What I have been finding over the last month or so is that I can go flatter nin whole stroke, into a water-boatmany sort of thing, but that although this feels good it doesn't seem to change anything in terms of stats. Charles mentioned a 60' rotation as optimum but I'm not sure where that is measured from/to. Could you comment?

Following what you've written I'm going to try to learn a 6bk. I never really "got" flutter-kick but the walz insight into 6bk now makes me excited to try it and "downgrade from my 2bk in search of better timing and action. Any advice?

The bobbing continues to be a joy, giving a sense of "place" in the water. On one side in one-arm, breathing away I think, it seems to take an age to bob to the surface, but it's great waiting, knowing the air is inevitably mine! Luckily nobody can see the inane grin on my face.
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A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
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"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
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  #90  
Old 12-10-2013
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Originally Posted by Talvi View Post
Great thread! Thanks :)



FWIW, for this eavesdropper your observations and advice are very helpful indeed. I really adore that Phelps clip, it's ousted Shinji's classic forn me, so I'll study it for those things you point out. What I have been finding over the last month or so is that I can go flatter nin whole stroke, into a water-boatmany sort of thing, but that although this feels good it doesn't seem to change anything in terms of stats. Charles mentioned a 60' rotation as optimum but I'm not sure where that is measured from/to. Could you comment?

Following what you've written I'm going to try to learn a 6bk. I never really "got" flutter-kick but the walz insight into 6bk now makes me excited to try it and "downgrade from my 2bk in search of better timing and action. Any advice?

The bobbing continues to be a joy, giving a sense of "place" in the water. On one side in one-arm, breathing away I think, it seems to take an age to bob to the surface, but it's great waiting, knowing the air is inevitably mine! Luckily nobody can see the inane grin on my face.
Optimal rotation is just enough and not too much. The angle will be different for each body and change with the speed you are swimming. I think this is why Phelps is stacked at his warmup speeds.
__________________
Suzanne Atkinson, MD
Level 3 USAT Coach
USA Paralympic Triathlon Coach
Coach of 5 time USA Triathlon Triathlete of the Year, Kirsten Sass
Steel City Endurance, LTD
Fresh Freestyle

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