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  #71  
Old 12-07-2013
Superfly Superfly is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier View Post
Could you please, show me a single occurrence of this drill demonstrated outside one of my 2 youtube channels by any luck?
Head Lead rotation for free drill:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDdyvNRdh8Q
http://blog.swimator.com/2007/02/bod...-swimming.html
...
and many more.
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  #72  
Old 12-07-2013
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Originally Posted by Superfly View Post
Like I said... not many more, but rather none of them. As a proof, all those + your "many more" can't be turned into a 2bk version, or a 4bk version.

Last edited by CharlesCouturier : 12-07-2013 at 12:56 PM.
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  #73  
Old 12-07-2013
Superfly Superfly is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier View Post
As a proof, all those + your "many more" can't be turned into a 2bk version, or a 4bk version.
Of course it can. Flutter kick is just flutter kick. It can be turned into 2, 6 or even a 10 beat kick rhythm. The hips is where the change in rotation occurs. The legs just follow the same up and down flutter kick motion whether 2, 6 or 10 BK.

A 4 BK is asymmetrical and is caused by uneven hip twists. It is not common to see a 4 BK.

I respect your opinions and offer my own opinions. There are many ways of thinking about things, but don't call them "proof".

I see that you're willing to double-down on your "proof". I'm not going to argue. There are plenty of opinions masquerading as proof on the internet.

Last edited by Superfly : 12-07-2013 at 01:59 PM.
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  #74  
Old 12-07-2013
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Originally Posted by Superfly View Post
I respect your opinions and offer my own opinions. There are many ways of thinking about things, but don't call them "proof".
Of course proofs are important. My point is that none of the clip you showed me even demonstrate a well balanced 6bk (well balanced laterally that is).

So head led flutter kick with side rotation, if you add the 6bk proper timing, becomes NAD. But again, find me a single occurrence of it being done, what I'd call a proof. Or better still, record one, I mean your version of head-led BR with a 2bk for instance...

NAD is this, plus a valid kicking pattern:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHSYQ6BaM2A

It is not a matter of point, it is a matter of drill definition. As soon as you take the continuous body rotation momentum away, call it whatever you want mate, it ain't my drill anymore.

Last edited by CharlesCouturier : 12-07-2013 at 07:57 PM.
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  #75  
Old 12-07-2013
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier View Post
...I often use rotation drill + the active balance drill to gradually teach NAD. These are intermediate step. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pn03F7XPdTk
This looks a lot like NAD to me. What's the key difference? I see ... she isn't sculling much (at all) ... she rotates more (stacked shoulders?)? ...

I tried a-no-arm-drill today ... not as easy as it looks! :D Made it up and down the pool a few times, didn't feel like I was drowning, but struggled to get any forward motion or rotation that wasn't dependent on / locked into the kick. My sculling got "better" but I couldn't find the pattern of overall movement/co-ordination. I do a 2bk which is probably wrong too but I don't want to throw yet more variants into the mix.
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  #76  
Old 12-07-2013
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talvi View Post
This looks a lot like NAD to me. What's the key difference? I see ... she isn't sculling much (at all) ... she rotates more (stacked shoulders?)? ...
If you wear a tempo trainer whilst working on the NAD. Set it to say, 1.1 or something. Ensure that the BODY will follow the beep. Your body is now rotating at 1.1. Then add either a 6b, 4b or 2b flutter kick, correctly synchronized, and performing around that already set and continuous 1.1 BR rate. Boom. That's NAD. In such a case, body rotates using its own weight. Resulting momentum is similar to the pendulum effect, left shoulders goes up, then fall back down. By falling back down, right shoulder goes up, then falls back down. I must see no pause in the rotation action, and shouldn't be able to read your kick in your shoulders (ie, shoulders must transition from one side to the other perfectly smoothly, without shaking).

So. In comparison with Speedo's rotation drill. First off, the coach mentions that rotation must be 180deg. That is not the case with NAD. Rotation angle when swimming the free shouldn't exceed 60deg. Then, the most important aspect is that NAD is first and foremost a work on momentum. As soon as I see a body side stalled in side position (180deg makes it worst), well that's no longer NAD. It defeats the purpose. When the goals are significantly different, we're no longer facing the same drill.

Challenges are just not the same (at all). The key component of my works is momentum. Remove that and I deny the result as being similar to what I'm working hard on defining, and teaching.

Last edited by CharlesCouturier : 12-08-2013 at 12:05 AM.
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  #77  
Old 12-08-2013
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier View Post
If you wear a tempo trainer whilst working on the NAD. Set it to say, 1.1 or something. Ensure that the BODY will follow the beep. Your body is now rotating at 1.1. Then add either a 6b, 4b or 2b flutter kick, correctly synchronized, and performing around that already set and continuous 1.1 BR rate. Boom. That's NAD. In such a case, body rotates using its own weight. Resulting momentum is similar to the pendulum effect, left shoulders goes up, then fall back down. By falling back down, right shoulder goes up, then falls back down. I must see no pause in the rotation action, and shouldn't be able to read your kick in your shoulders (ie, shoulders must transition from one side to the other perfectly smoothly, without shaking).

So. In comparison with Speedo's rotation drill. First off, the coach mentions that rotation must be 180deg. That is not the case with NAD. Rotation angle when swimming the free shouldn't exceed 60deg. Then, the most important aspect is that NAD is first and foremost a work on momentum. As soon as I see a body side stalled in side position (180deg makes it worst), well that's no longer NAD. It defeats the purpose. When the goals are significantly different, we're no longer facing the same drill.

Challenges are just not the same (at all). The key component of my works is momentum. Remove that and I deny the result as being similar to what I'm working hard on defining, and teaching.
Thanks Charles, really helpful.

Could you clarify the angles thing (which has been a puzzle to me for ages) - Speedo's 180' angle is 90' off the horizontal to one side and then 90' off the horizontal to the other ...
- your 60' angle is 30' off the horizontal to one side and then 30' off the horizontal to the other. Is that right??

You posted somewhere (I think) about how to get the sculling motion right, but would you repeat any guidance on that here please?
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  #78  
Old 12-09-2013
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Wow take a few days off due to illness and the forums go crazy!

You can't have a foot on both sides of the fence it seems when doing 1 armed drills.

Charles version, and my version...are two different things for two different purposes.

There is no good or bad, correct or incorrect.

I prefer non stroking arm to remain molded to the side without sculling for momentum as this can cover up things you're trying to discover with the rest of the body movements.

Coversly the sculling can add to understanding about how momentum can carry over into the next movement of the cycle.

Both can work, but know what and why you are doing what you are doing.

When I am done being sick I will make some videos to demonstrate.

These 1 armed versions I am discussing are available in the 10 lesson easy freestyle series.
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  #79  
Old 12-09-2013
Danny Danny is offline
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Suzanne, in your version of the one-armed drills do you recommend a 2bk or a 6bk? Get well quick, we need you!
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  #80  
Old 12-09-2013
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
... I prefer non stroking arm to remain molded to the side without sculling for momentum as this can cover up things you're trying to discover with the rest of the body movements.

Coversly the sculling can add to understanding about how momentum can carry over into the next movement of the cycle. ...
Really helpful CoachSuzanne, thanks - and hope you feel back to 100% quickly again.
__________________
A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
~ George Kelly

"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov
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