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Old 09-09-2010
Janos Janos is offline
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Hi all,

There are already quite a few threads dealing with the 2b kick timing and hip and shoulder rotation, but my questions regard the segue from 2b to 6b kick and back again.
I have spent most of this summer trying to master the 6b kick in the TI style, and spent quite a bit of time trying to do this while looking through my 2b 'eyes'. My conclusion is that if you visualise the power phase of the stroke as a torsional process, with concentration on opposite foot/arm co-ordination it somehow leaves you without enough time to visualise and then actuate the flutter lick in between the next rotational kick. I also think that perhaps 'looking' at it that way leaves massive margin for error for students in 2b form too, and also perhaps dissipates some power of the stroke?
My solution has been to re-visualise my stroke. I now co-ordinate my kick with my catch in my minds eye, and don't so much consciously rotate as nudge my hips (thanks Shinji). The shoulders obviously have to rotate to accommodate compact recovery and catch.
I now see two sides to my stroke as I swim. The side I skate on, and the side that drives the stroke, and visualising it that way in both 2b and 6b modes has made massive differences to all aspects of my stroke. especially in smoothness and eliminating any possibility of losing stroking power when breathing.
It would be interesting to hear musings on the visualisation process for this particular issue, especially pertaining to smoothness of stroke mechanics.

Regards

Janos
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Old 09-09-2010
haschu33 haschu33 is offline
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Funny, today I tried to do a 6bk, just for a change. I did that once in the beginning of my fullstroke history and that time had the feeling I was flying through the pool. This time it was a disaster. It took my more than 25 strokes to get through a 22 m pool while it took me 14-18 to do it with a 2bk.
My visualization is quite simple and in fact doesn't change my stroke at all: I just add two kicks between the 'main' kicks. Sort of UMPF-umpf-umpf-UMPF-umpf-umpf-UMPF-umpf-umpf... instead of UMPF-....-UMPF-....- UMPF-...
Needs practice as it looks like. I forget it for the time being. I am not aiming to become a sprinter. In my regular pool visits with my quite relaxed 2bk I am at least as fast as the other amateur swimmer around me.
But one day I will try it out, just for the fun of a change.

Why are you going for a 6BK?
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Old 09-10-2010
Grant Grant is offline
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An intresting viewpoint from Emmit Hines of Houston Swims and TI background is to learn the 6BK and then learn the 2BK.
In my case I went from an nondescript flutter kick (though effective for short distances) to the 2BK. Though I just use the flutter kick for the last lengths of the longer races or the whole of 50m and 100m races I have tried to develop an effective 6bk. This has not materialized and I have just about let go of that goal.
Appreciate your thoughts on the 6BK learning process and would appreciate any others on that subject as I feel a 6BK would be more effective than a unconnected flutter kick.
May we all swim with ease and at the speeds we choose.
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May we swim with ease at the speeds we choose.
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Last edited by Grant : 09-11-2010 at 03:34 AM.
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Old 09-10-2010
Janos Janos is offline
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Hi Hachu/Grant,

I think I digressed a little too much with the 6b kick description, as it is the focal point of the rotational first kick that I wanted to discuss in detail. Since learning TI I have worked on a seamless integrated kick, but was never quite happy with the 'kick and spearing hand' visualisation. I have found greater satisfaction by letting the recovery arm do its elbow led thing, and thinking about connecting the downbeat of the kick to the catch at its most vertical. This is how I 'see' the power being created, which is at odds to how I used to 'see' it. Does this make sense?

Janos
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Old 09-10-2010
Alistair Alistair is offline
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I thought it about it that way too - I felt I was anchoring with the catching hand and the kick kind of 'kicked me over the top of it'.

But the spear is happening at the same time, so not sure how different it is to think of it in these two different ways :)
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Old 09-10-2010
daveblt daveblt is offline
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I doubt if I would ever even think about mastering a 6 beat kick . The way I swim just letting my legs trail behind me with my evolving 2 beat kick will probably always be good enough for me and this is after much time spent working on balance to where my legs are up where they belong nice and relaxed where they don't have a (mind all their own) .


Dave
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Old 09-10-2010
Richardsk Richardsk is offline
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There seem to be at least two schools of thought about the six-beat kick out there in the mainstream ( i.e. not TI) swimming world. Probably the most common is the one that starts crawl tuition with the kick, first holding on to the edge of the pool and then possibly with a kick board. There are plenty of videos on youtube and no doubt elsewhere showing this approach, often with children. No attempt is made to count the kick; the swimmer just kicks up and down as fast as possible and the theory is that the timing will come with time and quite naturally. The slogan "if you can count the beats you're not kicking fast enough" is probably typical of this school. For some people it no doubt works and most likely a great many elite swimmers learned this way.

The other, which is more in alignment with the TI approach, is to start with a slowish six-beat, accentuating the first and fourth beats - One two three Four five six etc, where if the kick begins on the left foot it goes L r l R l r . Of course as the left foot goes down the right foot comes up and so on. It is easy to get confused so personally I generally concentrate on just the down beats. The plan is to increase the tempo gradually until you have something akin to a real six-beat, and if you are really successful you will have a genuine six-beat that all the other pool denizens view with admiration and envy. I await that day with eager anticipation.

Of course an elegant two-beat could also be the object of admiration and envy, especially as performed by Olympic champions.
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Old 09-10-2010
haschu33 haschu33 is offline
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In all the time i spent in pools trying to learn my freestyle, I have seen ONCE a person using a 2BK instead of the usual uncoordinated flutter kick. It was a woman (of course), and the elegance and grace of a well performed 2BK is simply unbeatable, IMHO.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Richardsk View Post
...
Of course an elegant two-beat could also be the object of admiration and envy, especially as performed by Olympic champions.
Not an Olympic champion, but one of my favorites for the demonstration of a 2BK. Just wait until she passed the camera.

And - as we had that discussion in another thread - you can clearly see the timing: the kick starts when the body is in the diagonal position of the 'just enough' rotation and ends when the body is flat on the water thus describing a sort of bow-shaped figure towards the bottom of the pool.

I just like it.

TI coach Luisa from Spain
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Old 09-10-2010
Richardsk Richardsk is offline
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Very nice clip of TI coach Luisa.

In this clip two female Olympic swimmers are swimming with two-beat kicks, Rebecca Cooke GBR and Laure Manaudou FRA.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTgEqgaFsQs

I believe Manaudou got silver behind Ai Shibata JPN in this race.

Her kick is definitely worthy of admiration.
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  #10  
Old 09-11-2010
Janos Janos is offline
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The 6b kick is a natural progression from the 2b kick and vice versa. I think it all depends where you are applying your 'focus'. The Luisa example is a smooth unhurried 2b kick, the glide phase could be taken advantage of though (if more speed were required) with a flutter kick in between each rotational kick. I also think it is important that you count it that way too. The previous examples of counting the 6b kick is where I was, and this resulted in a churning type of motion, and a slower time than with my 2b kick. The other stated alternative being the mindless 6b blitz which is unsustainable. If you count the first kick and the next two separately though, the first being the rotational kick, your second and third kicks are small flutters that enhance the glide phase, you can get a wonderfully smooth stroke going. For me to achieve this state involves adopting a different focal point for the drive phase of the stroke. It would be interesting to hear some other views on this.
Do you see the downbeat kick driving the opposite hand forward, or do you see it kicking your body forward, with the spearing arm a peripheral action with the long axis rotation more of a pulse?
Another thought I am having regarding the kick is that in butterfly and breaststroke the short axis rotational pulse is followed by the kick. Should we not do the same in TI freestyle. Whereby the core drive is a split second before the kick, rather than the other way round?

Janos

Last edited by Janos : 09-11-2010 at 12:11 AM.
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