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  #1  
Old 11-10-2012
andyinnorway andyinnorway is offline
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andyinnorway
Default Help with 100m PB Please

With 6 weeks to go, I still have to complete a goal for 2012 and that is to do a sub 1:20 pool start 100m, compared to 1.22/1.23 last year.

Maths-wise I feel my most efficient chance at this is

TT@0.94 holding 18SPL

8 more strokes for push off and 4.5 more strokes for 3 turns.

Total strokes 18*4=72+12.5=84.5*0.94=1 minute 19s .43

That's the goal.

my reality as of today would be circa

SPL of 18,19,19,19 and probably a lost stroke or 2 from brain fry at that stroke rate for a time of 1.24

Anyone have some ideas for some sets I can try to hit my goal before xmas?
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  #2  
Old 11-10-2012
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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Hallo Andy,

did you ever try for just 100m forget TI (your body will never forget!) and TT? Several weeks ago I heard a coach (young man but obviously one of the old ones...) telling his student: "Do not household with your forces, your collapse is coming anyway..." So it might be your PB for this short distance will appear, when just swimming your momentary fastest not your constant fastest.

Hope for forgiveness, I'm aware that's nearly anti TI.

Regards,
Werner

PS: Have you ever let another guy stop time? I'm sure when stopping by my own it will differ at least +-2s...
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  #3  
Old 11-10-2012
haschu33 haschu33 is offline
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Now this is an unqualified reply from an unqualified slow swimmer.

Why 0.94 ? Probably you found out that you can swim confidently at that pace without having your stroke break down too much. I tell you something, I can swim at 0.9 with the same efficiency (or not efficiency :-)) as I do at 1.0. There is no difference in SPL for me in 0.9 and 1.0. It gets difficult at 0.8.
If I can do it, you can do it easily. You are young, strong, fit - all attributes I do not posses - where is the problem ?

Why don't you swim at 0.88 or 0.86 ?
84.5 x 0.88 = 1,14 and
84.5 x 0.86 = 1,13

That gives you enough room for a handful of additional strokes. In fact 89 strokes or beeps at 0.88 and 90 at 0.86.

The question is, what of your stroke breaks down at faster rates? I found out that I (quite naturally) cannot maintain the same stroke pattern that I would use at 1.3 e.g. There is not enough time, particularly for the push phase. But what I do is I shorten the stroke at the end of the pull, I only pull down to the hips and then out and forward with that arm, I never shorten the spearing, on the contrary, I really go far out in the front at fast rates. It does not effect efficiency, the 'power' phase is at the beginning of the pull phase, the rest doesn't do a lot of good, at least not at fast rates. At slow rates this is different.

Mathematically I must have swum something like 40 x 0.9 = 0:36 on a 50m since I did two consecutive 25m laps once (out of the blue moon) with an SPL of 16 each at 0.9 (On that day swimming was complete fun, that's how it hapenned). I cannot reproduce it, though.
And I never measure my times, so I don't know.
And again, all I can do you can do better.

Just do a few laps at 0.8 and then relax into 0.88 :-))


Good luck, and I hope this is not too ridiculous

Last edited by haschu33 : 11-10-2012 at 07:48 PM.
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  #4  
Old 11-11-2012
andyinnorway andyinnorway is offline
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Werner - There is some logic in your post, I know last year's fastest time was done that way with the watch. This year I wanted it to be a mathematical triumph too so that 1. I would know my exact time according to stroke count and 2. I would know how to make my 1.19 a 1.18.

Hascu - If your advice is to acquire the skill to swim consistently at a faster stroke rate then you are probably right. I have been working on this a fair amount lately with single 25m repeats. I get these sort of results

0.96 - SPL 17
0.92 - SPL 19
0.88 - SPL 20

below 0.88 I start to lose the rhythm.

I had forgotten about shortening the stroke etc so will try that next week and see what results.

I'll also try just 'sprinting' a 100m without TT and see what time I get.

thanks for the inputs.
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  #5  
Old 11-12-2012
haschu33 haschu33 is offline
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Some more stuff.

Here you can find an analysis of Ian Thorpe's and Grant Hackett's stroke. It's a bit old, but still valid, I guess. It shows that both have their 'pushing' hand leave the water at hip level. Both don't push a lot: seen from land Grant Hackett's hand moves about 50 cm backwards in the water during pull/push, Ian Thorpe's hand only 40 cm.

Anyway, some more suggestions. Don't forget I am just an amateur swimmer who is getting fed up with swimming slow ;-)
So forget it if you think it is nonsense.

- When swimming at fast stroke rates don't focus on catch, pull, EVF and all that stuff. Your pulling or better anchoring arm knows what to do - just trust that.
- Keep simple and only very few focal points - like making lots of ground on every stroke, or extend to the next wall on spearing
- Be faster than the TT, do a swift catch and pull movement, bring the arm forward and be in the position where you want to hit the beep just a tiny bit earlier than the TT - that gives you a sense of space and relaxation instead being a bit late and having the feeling that the TT drives you through the water
- there is time - even at 0.8 - to play with the stroke timing while you swim

I think swimming without TT is a great idea. Just do a fast swim. Whatever the result is, do one with an even faster stroke rate.

Enjoy it. I like swimming fast. I know it is all relative. But this physical sense of rushing through the water is just hilarious.
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  #6  
Old 11-12-2012
andyinnorway andyinnorway is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haschu33 View Post
Some more stuff.

Here you can find an analysis of Ian Thorpe's and Grant Hackett's stroke. It's a bit old, but still valid, I guess. It shows that both have their 'pushing' hand leave the water at hip level. Both don't push a lot: seen from land Grant Hackett's hand moves about 50 cm backwards in the water during pull/push, Ian Thorpe's hand only 40 cm.

Anyway, some more suggestions. Don't forget I am just an amateur swimmer who is getting fed up with swimming slow ;-)
So forget it if you think it is nonsense.

- When swimming at fast stroke rates don't focus on catch, pull, EVF and all that stuff. Your pulling or better anchoring arm knows what to do - just trust that.
- Keep simple and only very few focal points - like making lots of ground on every stroke, or extend to the next wall on spearing
- Be faster than the TT, do a swift catch and pull movement, bring the arm forward and be in the position where you want to hit the beep just a tiny bit earlier than the TT - that gives you a sense of space and relaxation instead being a bit late and having the feeling that the TT drives you through the water
- there is time - even at 0.8 - to play with the stroke timing while you swim

I think swimming without TT is a great idea. Just do a fast swim. Whatever the result is, do one with an even faster stroke rate.

Enjoy it. I like swimming fast. I know it is all relative. But this physical sense of rushing through the water is just hilarious.
All great advice - cool - I did a mini tri session today so hit the pool after 30 minutes of steady on the run and bike and used the time to do some steady laps followed by 15 minute of single lengths with TT at 0.9 and 0.8 to program my brain to the new tempo.

I'll take your advice to the pool tomorrow and continue. I think you are right, TT@0.8 will make a sub 1.20 possible before christmas, once I am comfy in my brain with the new stroke rate.

Best wishes.
Andy.
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  #7  
Old 11-12-2012
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haschu33 View Post
Some more stuff.

Here you can find an analysis of Ian Thorpe's and Grant Hackett's stroke. It's a bit old, but still valid, I guess. It shows that both have their 'pushing' hand leave the water at hip level. Both don't push a lot: seen from land Grant Hackett's hand moves about 50 cm backwards in the water during pull/push, Ian Thorpe's hand only 40 cm.

Anyway, some more suggestions. Don't forget I am just an amateur swimmer who is getting fed up with swimming slow ;-)
So forget it if you think it is nonsense.

- When swimming at fast stroke rates don't focus on catch, pull, EVF and all that stuff. Your pulling or better anchoring arm knows what to do - just trust that.
- Keep simple and only very few focal points - like making lots of ground on every stroke, or extend to the next wall on spearing
- Be faster than the TT, do a swift catch and pull movement, bring the arm forward and be in the position where you want to hit the beep just a tiny bit earlier than the TT - that gives you a sense of space and relaxation instead being a bit late and having the feeling that the TT drives you through the water
- there is time - even at 0.8 - to play with the stroke timing while you swim

I think swimming without TT is a great idea. Just do a fast swim. Whatever the result is, do one with an even faster stroke rate.

Enjoy it. I like swimming fast. I know it is all relative. But this physical sense of rushing through the water is just hilarious.
Great pieces of advice. For anything that's 100m or less, the Tempo Trainer is optional. There are good reasons that may call for its use, but in my opinion they'd mostly pertain to how to be able to hold sub maximal pace for distances longer than the one you're actually testing.

Otherwise, swimming a fast 100m with the goal of knowing how fast we can really go over this distance should resemble more to actually racing over this distance. I don't think that racing a flat out 100m with a Tempo Trainer in a Master Swimmers competition for instance would be a good idea.

My extra advice to Andy would be to not only work on the 100m, but also on the 25 and the 50. Lactate accumulation is less critical over these shorter distances, which allows you to actually express yourself at higher rate without being forced to slow down.

Also, a 100m in 1:24 means a 1500m in 25:30 given an sdi of 1.07 (which is probably your case), so not bad at all...

Last edited by CharlesCouturier : 11-12-2012 at 04:24 PM.
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  #8  
Old 11-12-2012
haschu33 haschu33 is offline
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thanks, folks, but just wait until you applied it...

I think that what CCC aka CoachCharlesCouturier (boy man, you either type extremely fast, or choose from a million templates for the replies, or have lot's of spare time) said about also swimming 25 and 50 m is a real great advice. It can give you the experience that you are able to swim at fast rates, and you then only have to extend that. In contrast to trying all at 100 and find out that it doesn't work just because you got tired.

Good luck!
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  #9  
Old 11-12-2012
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haschu33 View Post
I think that what CCC aka CoachCharlesCouturier (boy man, you either type extremely fast, or choose from a million templates for the replies, or have lot's of spare time) said about also swimming 25 and 50 m is a real great advice.
I can't write with a pen, me wrist starts hurting real bad after 60sec. But can type at 50 words per minute without looking at the keyboard etc. My spare time goes off the windows thanks to this addiction I have to forums; and TI is very very addictive :)

Sprinting remains kidding. Something kids can never get enough.

I therefore like your notice about an entirely different mindset when you sprint. This is probably what I appreciated the most in your previous answer. Adults may have more natural affinities with calm mindful state of mind, but the kid within us is hopefully never too far and always keen to surface for sprinting fun, not worrying at all what people may think or how we look like etc... Let us not kill this kid we have within ourselves, he knows how to sprint!

Last edited by CharlesCouturier : 11-12-2012 at 09:09 PM.
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  #10  
Old 11-12-2012
CoachDavidShen CoachDavidShen is offline
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It would seem to me the last thing to optimize would be your flip turns. For sure don't do open turns; you'll save time by doing flip turns. Practice getting them smooth and fast, with strong push off. That may get you your .02 sec to reach your overall time goal....
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