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  #11  
Old 03-06-2017
sclim sclim is offline
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Originally Posted by Tom Pamperin View Post
Well, no. As I understand it, that's not how it works.

The type of calories you eat matter just as much (maybe more) than how many you eat. A diet that includes lots of simple carbs and sugars (as in any food you buy in a grocery store outside the produce aisle) causes lots of bad effects, including insulin resistance and excessive weight gain. These kinds of calories trigger your body to store any energy not used immediately as unhealthy body fat.

On the other hand, I've been reading lots of current research suggesting that a diet high (as in 70-75% of total calories) in healthy fats (avocados, olives, coconut oil, nuts, seeds) can actually program your body to switch to burning fat as your primary fuel. It's counter-intuitive, but a diet high in healthy fats actually seems to lead to a sharp decrease in body fat.

Exercise is necessary for health and fitness, but I suspect eating right matters more than trying to just "burn calories" in the pool or running or whatever.

When I've needed to lose weight, I've had much more success changing the type of calories I eat. Change the WAY you eat, don't just try to restrict calories. That rarely works.
Tom, and others reading this, you should be aware that this view contradicts the conventional mainstream medical dogma of the past 40 or so years, so you may not get support on this if you consult with your doctor. The current US and Canadian official "Food Guides" are based upon Dietary Committee recommendations set out in the 60's, that encompass several fundamental assumptions that seemed reasonable back then, but which have since not been validated (cholesterol hypothesis, a calorie is a calorie, etc). For the record, I as a family physician had been espousing that line to my patients for my whole medical career. I retired in 2012, and, wanting to compete in triathlon and not wanting to run out of fuel at the 3 hour mark, explored various ways of trying to burn fat instead of carbohydrate, and stumbled on the body of research into an alternative metabolic pathway. Since 2015 I have been following a low carbohydrate, unlimited fat diet and have found that it agrees well with me, and much to my surprise, I haven't died or become dizzy and hypoglycemic during long endurance events, and have performed well during long races. Much to my chagrin, I realize that the dietary principles I had been exhorting my patients to follow for the past 40 years were wrong.

But the medical establishment has not come round to accepting the research that supports this diet, because it challenges the dogma of Dr Ancel Keys who chaired and heavily influenced the committees of the 1950s/60s that generated the recommendations that eventually became the US Dietary food guides. A well written book that explains this well to a lay (non-medical) audience is "The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Living" (and a companion volume "The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance" for athletes) by Drs. Jeff Volek and Stephen Phinney.

P.S. I was already very lean prior to my dietary change, so my weight/BMI really didn't change, but most other people lose weight on switching to this dietary regimen. However, my tolerance for prolonged activity and for longer comfortable intervals between feedings increased dramatically.

Last edited by sclim : 03-08-2017 at 02:11 AM.
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  #12  
Old 03-06-2017
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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Hello Sclim,

Quote:
...Since 2015 I have been following a low carbohydrate, unlimited fat diet...
In the 1970s (mabe early 80s) that was proven and expanded to "nearly no carbohydrate" in Atkins' books. The theory behind was, your body can only convert eaten fat into body fat with help of carbonhydrates only. If you don't eat any carbs...

Best regards,
Werner
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  #13  
Old 03-06-2017
Tom Pamperin Tom Pamperin is offline
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sclim,

thanks for chiming in. Actually, I first learned about the high fat diet and fat burning metabolism from you here on the TI Forum--so thanks for that!

I started experimenting with an open mind, "what can I lose" frame of mind about 6 months ago and find that it works very well for me. I'm genetically pre-disposed to diabetes so reducing insulin resistance this way (diet) is a very attractive proposition. I am now eating lots of raw foods (nuts, seeds, avocados, salad greens, bean sprouts, etc.) with plenty of added healthy fats (coconut oil/milk, full fat Greek style yogurt, olive oil, butter) and whatever meat I feel like eating without trying to make it low fat.

I found that I would lose up to 2 pounds per week when I shifted from a diet high in sugars (breads, pasta, sugary sodas) and started eating this way. Anecdotal evidence only, but good enough for me to continue. And as you say, I don't seem to get hungry between meals at all thanks to plenty of fat in the diet.
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  #14  
Old 03-08-2017
sclim sclim is offline
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Originally Posted by WFEGb View Post
Hello Sclim,


In the 1970s (mabe early 80s) that was proven and expanded to "nearly no carbohydrate" in Atkins' books. The theory behind was, your body can only convert eaten fat into body fat with help of carbonhydrates only. If you don't eat any carbs...

Best regards,
Werner
When I say the "mainstream medical dogma" I really know what I am talking about. During my professional medical career I had the full opportunity to learn the truth about the Atkins diet, but despite numerous testimonials by patients who found it helped them lose weight, I was influenced by the conventional medical experts who maligned the Atkins book, the evidence that he published, and the man himself. I am ashamed to say I gave it no further thought and just knew that the experts were right, after all they were highly trained scientists, they existed in an atmosphere of mutual scrutiny of evidence and rigorous peer review, that the real truth would be obvious to all who search for evidence etc, etc, and rationalized in my mind that there were all kinds of reasons why my patients incorrectly thought they were being helped by the diet, that they were likely only getting short term losses, which were likely fluid losses, and it was not my job to find out how exactly they were wrong and so on.

In short, I fell into the same blind spot that the mainstream metabolic, lipid and endocrine experts were in. The Phinney and Volek books list quite clearly the literature references that have been available for all to review for over a hundred years, but also including research results of the last few decades that demonstrate the error of the lipid hypothesis in the genesis of cardiovascular disease, and the perpetual sustainability and safety (not to mention the health preserving benefits) of a very low carbohydrate diet.

The trouble is, in the face of the existing huge bias in dietetic and medical thinking, studies that appear to contradict this bias just look "wrong" to
prestigious medical journals, so they are reluctant to accept the articles for publication. Even if they initially accept such an article, the article has to undergo peer review by leading experts in the field, and guess what, they are even more likely to reject the article for lack of credibility. Even if the contradicting articles manage to get published, the way it works is that articles are flagged according to the number of times they are cited by other authors. Because of the bias, contradictory articles are likely to be ignored (because they lack the number of citations compared to the ones that support the current lipid hypothesis, no matter how poorly, and this leads to further dilution of the ratio of citations for dissenting articles etc.etc.)

It is currently very discouraging, but eventually the real truth will out.To tell the truth, the data on how low fat diets lead to improvement in cardiovascular morbidity and mortality in interventional trials is very sparse and patchy, and can only be made to look good by judicious cherry picking and pruning of the data. Once the number of positive results of low carbohydrate diet trials passes a certain trickle point, the dogma will be sufficiently challenged and then the floodgates will open. But I don't have to wait till then to continue what I am doing.

P.S. Werner, it is a little more complicated than that, but essentially it works like you say. It involves the release of insulin, which is triggered by the metabolism of carbohydrate into glucose. At continually high insulin levels in the bloodstream the body gradually becomes insensitive or resistant to insulin, and blood glucose fails to respond, ie. remains at high levels in the bloodstream. But at high insulin levels fat metabolism is inhibited, and fat stays as fat (cannot be converted to by-products, to generate energy), and worse, under the influence of insulin, continually more fat gets formed and deposited in fat cells around the body.

Last edited by sclim : 03-08-2017 at 02:14 AM.
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  #15  
Old 03-08-2017
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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Hello Sclim,

WOW, you really seem to be familiar with all that stuff! I only remember two things around Atkins' diet :

- Some known tried this diet for some months (remember two men and a woman). They all lost extreme weight in this short time. All told you have to be disciplined otherwise the weight loss stops. They all told you're getting hot for all kind of food including any carbs. The men started with light sport after the diet and held their reduced weight as long as I met them regularly. The woman added weight after diet, but she even says till today, you'll lose weight much faster and gain weight afterwards much slower with this dieat compared to others she tried....

- Once upon a time there was a short documentation (normally with some medical background) in German TV about varying diets. About Atkins' it sounded very strange to me. I would summarize it as: This diet has best results of all, we couldn't find adverse effects, but be careful this can't be good for your body...

So for now, when looking into a mirror, my belly tells me I should give it at try myself.... but first I'll try to swim some months more regularly...

Best regards,
Werner
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  #16  
Old 03-08-2017
ti97
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Pamperin View Post
sclim,

thanks for chiming in. Actually, I first learned about the high fat diet and fat burning metabolism from you here on the TI Forum--so thanks for that!
Like Tom, I also remember (maybe the same thread) discussion last year about carbs vs fat. I personally have cut back on carbs with pleasing results. I need to take the next step to achieve a real ketogenic diet.

Local cardiologists recommend this type of diet and have established a supervised program. The idea sounds simple but implementation, for me, is not without some challenge. Carbs are addictive.

We are being slowly poisoned by sugars and processed foods.
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  #17  
Old 03-08-2017
ti97
 
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this one:

http://www.totalimmersion.net/forum/...ighlight=carbs
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  #18  
Old 03-10-2017
sclim sclim is offline
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Originally Posted by ti97 View Post
Thanks, ti97, I had forgotten I had said all this before. Maybe I should just shut up and listen more. Or at least reflect a bit before blurting out what's on my mind. I wonder how our fellow correspondent scoopUK has progressed on his low carbohydrate journey towards ketosis.

One consequence of the prolonged switch to low carbohydrate, low sugar diet is the gradual loss of my addiction to sweetness. For years I had a really sweet tooth. I would really delight in a really sweet hit from a small group of favourite treats that I would crave and frequently consume: maple syrup coated sweet doughnuts, lots of sugar in my coffee, Aero sweet chocolate bars etc. I realize now that I gradually lost my huge lust for the sweet doughnuts over the past decade, and started eating them less often even before I started my low carbohydrate journey.

However over the past year and a half of low carbohydrate intake, I have indulged in sweet binges much more rarely and with less and less enthusiasm, more like celebrations of a lost memory of pleasure, rather than actual pleasures in themselves.

Last night was a particularly jarring reminder of what I have lost. I had to go out to pick up my race numbers and timing chip for an upcoming running race this week end. My wife requested I pick up a "Blizzard" (a sweet thick liquid ice-cream dessert) from the Dairy Queen franchise I would pass on the way home; and maybe I wanted to get a treat for myself too. I ridiculed her, asking how could she eat anything cold when it was -18 degrees outside; but the real reason was that I had stopped really craving sweet treats myself for quite a while now.

As it turned out, I picked up a Blizzard for her, and because it looked so good, a small Strawberry Sundae for myself, because that's what I would have done all these years past. When I got home, I ate the Sundae that I had bought, but thought I would have had a more delicious anticipation than what I actually experienced. And the treat was nice enough but not as supremely delicious as I remembered it would have been two years ago, or even last year. Most of all, I was impacted at how SWEET it tasted, and not necessarily in a pleasant way.

So for those wondering, it is possible to radically and permanently change your diet, as it is, I guess, for most habits if you really want to, even at a late stage in life (I turned 69 3 days ago). Those changes trigger other changes in your body, and I guess in you. I only wish the change to TI thinking of the past few years would have triggered a more rapid transformation to faster swimming speed lol.

Last edited by sclim : 03-10-2017 at 07:32 PM.
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  #19  
Old 03-10-2017
Danny Danny is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sclim View Post
Thanks, ti97, I had forgotten I had said all this before. Maybe I should just shut up and listen more. Or at least reflect a bit before blurting out what's on my mind. I wonder how our fellow correspondent scoopUK has progressed on his low carbohydrate journey towards ketosis.

One consequence of the prolonged switch to low carbohydrate, low sugar diet is the gradual loss of my addiction to sweetness. For years I had a really sweet tooth. I would really delight in a really sweet hit from a small group of favourite treats that I would crave and frequently consume: maple syrup coated sweet doughnuts, lots of sugar in my coffee, Aero sweet chocolate bars etc. I realize now that I gradually lost my huge lust for the sweet doughnuts over the past decade, and started eating them less often even before I started my low carbohydrate journey.

However over the past year and a half of low carbohydrate intake, I have indulged in sweet binges much more rarely and with less and less enthusiasm, more like celebrations of a lost memory of pleasure, rather than actual pleasures in themselves.

Last night was a particularly jarring reminder of what I have lost. I had to go out to pick up my race numbers and timing chip for an upcoming running race this week end. My wife requested I pick up a "Blizzard" (a sweet thick liquid ice-cream dessert) from the Dairy Queen franchise I would pass on the way home; and maybe I wanted to get a treat for myself too. I ridiculed her, asking how could she eat anything cold when it was -18 degrees outside; but the real reason was that I had stopped really craving sweet treats myself for quite a while now.

As it turned out, I picked up a Blizzard for her, and because it looked so good, a small Strawberry Sundae for myself, because that's what I would have done all these years past. When I got home, I ate the Sundae that I had bought, but thought I would have had a more delicious anticipation than what I actually experienced. And the treat was nice enough but not as supremely delicious as I remembered it would have been two years ago, or even last year. Most of all, I was impacted at how SWEET it tasted, and not necessarily in a pleasant way.

So for those wondering, it is possible to radically and permanently change your diet, as it is, I guess, for most habits if you really want to, even at a late stage in life (I turned 69 3 days ago). Those changes trigger other changes in your body, and I guess in you. I only wish the change to TI thinking of the past few years would have triggered a more rapid transformation to faster swimming speed lol.
sclim, your comments triggered a whole range of thoughts and questions that I would like to ask you. I have been diabetic (type 1) for over 50 yr, and I have no weight problem, but I have considered going to a low carbohydrate diet because it might offer me better blood sugar control. What is keto-acidosis and why do diabetics have to worry about it when non diabetics apparently do not. Is this an issue for me if I want to go on a low carbohydrate diet?

As for the question of what you are used to eating, I started eating less salt years ago to control my blood pressure. Now I seem to have a problem eating at restaurants, because the food they serve me always seems to have way too much salt and I don't like the taste of it.
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  #20  
Old 03-10-2017
gary p gary p is offline
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Swimming can be very effective as the exercise portion of a weight loss program. But, to paraphrase an old saying, "you can't outswim an out-of-control fork." Well, I could as a teen, but not a 40-something year old Masters swimmer.

About 3 years ago, I finally hit my limit when I passed the "Obese" line on the BMI chart. I changed my diet dramatically, reducing mostly my carb intake (down to ~150 grams a day, exclusive of fiber) and, to a lesser extent, my fat intake. I increased my protein and fiber intake.

At first I did a little biking (~30 minutes, 5 times a week) for exercise. Then I found myself back in the pool a couple days a week, after a 27 year layoff from the sport. Soon I was swimming exclusively. I never swam a lot, maybe 12k-14k yards a week at my peak. But I did a lot of high intensity swimming; specifically USPRT sets of 25's, 50's, and 75's at race pace for the 100, 200, and 400/500. Combined with the diet, it yielded very dramatic weight loss results.



I haven't kept all that weight off, but I have kept most of it off. I'm in the low 180's as of now, trying to work my way back down to ~170 for triathlon season. I'm swimming about 10k yards a week, similar intensity as described above, plus doing three 30-60 minutes structured training sessions on the bike. You'd think the weight would be coming off rapidly. It's not, because I haven't maintained the same food discipline. Specifically, I have a hard time staying off the carbs for a sustained period of time. So the loss has been slow, with a significant "2 steps forward, 1 step back" dynamic. If I go on a "weekend carb bender," I can see a number on the scale Monday morning that's 4-5# higher than what I saw Friday morning. Takes me all week, or sometimes longer, to get it back off.

Last edited by gary p : 03-10-2017 at 10:18 PM.
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