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  #1  
Old 03-13-2016
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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Default Hope for men of average height

You dont have to be a giant to swim incredably fast. I guess you need good technique to beat the giants....
And you still have to be incredably talented, but thats a detail ;-)
He is such a funny little guy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ry1sPi8fgck

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKPZIVd2SWg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oFp...E#t=237.352335

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4KuUDSJkdA


Kosuke Hagino
1.75 m
400m best
3:43.90

Sun Yang 1.98 m
400m best
3.40,14

And some reading
https://coachrickswimming.com/2014/1...ighest-levels/

http://www.swimmingscience.net/2014/...-200-free.html

Last edited by Zenturtle : 03-13-2016 at 01:06 PM.
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  #2  
Old 03-13-2016
Danny Danny is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
You dont have to be a giant to swim incredably fast. I guess you need good technique to beat the giants....
And you still have to be incredably talented, but thats a detail ;-)
He is such a funny little guy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ry1sPi8fgck

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKPZIVd2SWg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oFp...E#t=237.352335

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4KuUDSJkdA


Kosuke Hagino
1.75 m
400m best
3:43.90

Sun Yang 1.98 m
400m best
3.40,14

And some reading
https://coachrickswimming.com/2014/1...ighest-levels/

http://www.swimmingscience.net/2014/...-200-free.html
I was so surprised by the energy outputs listed in the swimming science article that I had to google exactly what a kilocalorie is. Apparently it is the same thing as a Calorie (with a large C) that is the unit we see listed on food packages in the USA. So the fact that these guys need under 30 Calories to swim 200 m at record pace is a little frustrating to me. I think I once read that Michael Phelps consumes something like 12000 Calories/day when training. So if he expends all of that energy swimming at record pace, he would be swimming 80 km/day. Actually more, because 30 kcalories is more than any of them really used, according to the article.

Does any of this make sense? Not sure... what do you think?
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  #3  
Old 03-13-2016
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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Zenturtle
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Suppose they need on avarage 25kcal for the race in 1 min 45 =105 seconds
Thats 25.000 cal per 105 seconds= 238 cal/sec.
1cal=4.2Joule, so thats also 238 x4,2 Joule/sec =1000 Watt.
So these guys put out 1000 watts for the duration of the race! Sounds a bit high,but could be in the ballpark.
Go try on a hometrainer to produce 1000 watt.....
If we swim at half the speed, doing 100m in 1 min 45 we need 1/8 of that power, so 125 watt.
The power to bicycle about 15 mph on a MTB.
http://kreuzotter.de/english/espeed.htm
Thats if we are just as efficient, which is probably not the case.

Phelps eating 12.000 kcal.
2000 to keep him at living temperature, 10.000 left.
25% efficiency, 2500 kcal output.
Suppose he is working out 6 hours a day.
Thats 21.600 seconds. 2500 kcal = 10.500 kJoule.
Avarage power output during 6 hours :486 Watt. ( watt=Joules/sec)
Sounds very high. But so does eating 12.000 kcal per day and not gaining weight.
If this is all true, these people are living in another universe.

Does this make sense?

Last edited by Zenturtle : 03-13-2016 at 07:31 PM.
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  #4  
Old 03-13-2016
Danny Danny is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
Suppose they need on avarage 25kcal for the race in 1 min 45 =105 seconds
Thats 25.000 cal per 105 seconds= 238 cal/sec.
1cal=4.2Joule, so thats also 238 x4,2 Joule/sec =1000 Watt.
So these guys put out 1000 watts for the duration of the race! Sounds a bit high,but could be in the ballpark.
Go try on a hometrainer to produce 1000 watt.....
If we swim at half the speed, doing 100m in 1 min 45 we need 1/8 of that power, so 125 watt.
Thats if we are just as efficient, which is probably not the case.

Phelps eating 12.000 kcal.
2000 to keep him at living temperature, 10.000 left.
25% efficiency, 2500 kcal output.
Suppose he is working out 6 hours a day.
Thats 21.600 seconds. 2500 kcal = 10.500 kJoule.
Avarage power output during 6 hours :486 Watt. ( watt=Joules/sec)
Sounds very high. But so does eating 12.000 kcal per day and not gaining weight.
If this is all true, these people are living in another universe.

Does this make sense?
So you're giving him only 25% efficiency, whereas I gave him 100%. Well, I suppose my estimate is a little optimistic. Somewhere I recall people here saying that most of us have to struggle to get 3% efficiency when we swim and the elites still stay in the single numbers. If we cut his efficiency down to 10% then he only has 1000 kcal to work with which cuts him down to 194 Watt. Does that sound better?
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  #5  
Old 03-13-2016
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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100% energy food in, gives about 25% mechanical energy output.
That 25% has to be transferred to the water, where the mechanical solid body movements to water and drag loss management start.
That way you could end up with 9% for the best stroke mechanics and 3% for the worst.
375Watt to swim 1.45 min /100m pace (from 9% to 3%) sounds like a lot, but not too far off for a bad swimmer.
125 Watt for an elite swimmer (at a nett 9%) to swim that pace also sounds reasonable.
Without a proper definition of the efficiency meant, its impossible to compare different efficiencies.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 03-13-2016 at 08:06 PM.
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  #6  
Old 03-15-2016
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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The relative strokelengths of the 3 fastest swimmers in the 400m watched from above halfway a length:

They are swimming at the same speed, and timed for 8 strokes.
This time, devided by their height gives the relative gear in which they are swimming.
A person twice as long , swimming at the same speed, should take twice as much time to take the same number of strokes if the swimmers are having the same relative strokelength.
The factor is the same in that case.

Kosuke Hagino: 6.2 sec/8strokes, height 1m75; Factor= 3.54
Park Tae-Hwan: 6.55 sec/8strokes, height 1m83; Factor= 3.58
Sun Yang: 6.5 sec/8strokes, height 1m98; Factor= 3.28

Conclusion: the little guys are taking relatively more time to finish 8 strokes than the big guy. They are having a better relative DPS than the big guy.
The big guy is using a 2-4BK, the other two a 6BK.
Probably they are getting some propulsion from their kick, gaining roughly 10% on their strokelength.
They are using a very similar stroketype.

Is this is an ideal stroketype for an average adult learner to copy....No idea.

Now lets compare the girl who swims like a bloke with the real blokes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFcDum8eCaA
She is swimming about 3min 59 for 400m, the 3 guys swim about 3 min 45 for that distance, which is 6% faster.

Katie Ledecky: 5.1 sec/8strokes, height 1m83; Factor= 2.79
This is at her slower speed. We have to compare all the swimmers at the same speed, so Ledecky has to up her strokerate by 6%, bringing her 8 stroke time down by 6%.
She will take 4.81 sec/8 strokes if she swims just as fast as the guys keeping her strokelength the same.
Her factor drops to 2.63.

She might swim like a bloke compared to the girls, but compared to Kosuke and Park her relative strokelength is only 2.63/3.56= 74% from that of the boys.
Yep, the boys are still stronger and can swim in a higher gear, higher torque load.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 03-15-2016 at 11:03 PM.
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  #7  
Old 03-16-2016
descending descending is offline
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descending
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In the ranks of age group competition the body morphology has no bearing on success it's training progressive overload, intensity and consistency. Once you get to the absolute tip of the spear at the World Elite levels then unteachable physical gifts begin to be important separators.

Any body morphology can and does show up at Master Nationals every year on the podium. 5'8" guys whip 6'4" guys. Same goes for regionally competitive Masters meets. The innate tools we are born with are the little bit of icing on the cake that *can* make a difference when added to the training component. The training consistency and dedication is the cake. Most people never bake the cake. Perfect example is a guy on my team I *should* crush with my body dimensions and my experience level if we accept the premise body types win races, but he trains ferociously 6x a week and lifts 3x a week. I'm ~ 6' taller and way more flexible, but he has me by 15 seconds over a 500scy. He wants it more!

Last edited by descending : 03-16-2016 at 10:50 AM.
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  #8  
Old 03-16-2016
s.sciame s.sciame is offline
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s.sciame
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Quote:
Originally Posted by descending View Post
he trains ferociously 6x a week and lifts 3x a week. I'm ~ 6' taller and way more flexible, but he has me by 15 seconds over a 500scy. He wants it more!
out of curiosity, what kind of training does he do 6x a week? USRPT sets everyday? Does he alternate hard sessions with easier sessions to recover? Moreover has he ever had overtraining issues?

In the thread below, coaches Terry and Suzanne suggest to rest 48 to 72 hours between hard sessions, what do you think about it? (I know that you train ferociously too :))

https://www.totalimmersion.net/forum...ead.php?t=8604

Salvo
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  #9  
Old 03-16-2016
descending descending is offline
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descending
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s.sciame View Post
out of curiosity, what kind of training does he do 6x a week? USRPT sets everyday? Does he alternate hard sessions with easier sessions to recover? Moreover has he ever had overtraining issues?

In the thread below, coaches Terry and Suzanne suggest to rest 48 to 72 hours between hard sessions, what do you think about it? (I know that you train ferociously too :))

https://www.totalimmersion.net/forum...ead.php?t=8604

Salvo
That's where I think I diverge greatly from TI and where Masters does. I'm not saying either is right or wrong it's just not for me, but if I trained with TI's workouts I'd get moved over 2 lanes at practice b/c I'd be getting run over both in training and racing. I'm 5 days a week and about 20k average for a week. It's a mix of everything really: descending, builds, some threshold work, sprints, kick you name it. I've never heard or seen of him over training. I have been swimming this way for close to 30 years more or less with no issues. 20 years ago I was 6-7 swims a week with some 2 a days and 35+k a week! Ahhh those were the days. And that is nothing the club team does 80k+ a week in the summers darn little kids are amazing.

Our team goes in cycles of a pre-season base, them some endurance work and then progressive overload. Some people love long course and will go on their own with others to do that, but I'm a scy guy. It's really not that big of a deal once you get used to it it's your new normal it only seems intimidating b/c it's new and a fresh challenge. Once you do it, if you do it, you will be thinking 'what was I worried about?'. At some point I think a swimmer has to decide if energy conservation is the goal or going as fast as they possibly can is the goal. I think endurance crazy people doing 20k swims and what not those people absolutely have to build around energy conservation. For me it's training for a 500 it's not like I'm running around the world so it's about how long can I hold off the impeding pain burn and muscle shut down. Focusing on dps, 2 beat kicks or bilateral breathing isn't going to get me on the podium in an all out 500 the winners would be drying off when I have 100 to go:(

Last edited by descending : 03-16-2016 at 07:11 PM.
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  #10  
Old 03-16-2016
sclim sclim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by descending View Post
That's where I think I diverge greatly from TI and where Masters does. I'm not saying either is right or wrong it's just not for me, but if I trained with TI's workouts I'd get moved over 2 lanes at practice b/c I'd be getting run over both in training and racing. I'm 5 days a week and about 20k average for a week. It's a mix of everything really: descending, builds, some threshold work, sprints, kick you name it. I've never heard or seen of him over training. I have been swimming this way for close to 30 years more or less with no issues. 20 years ago I was 6-7 swims a week with some 2 a days and 35+k a week! Ahhh those were the days. And that is nothing the club team does 80k+ a week in the summers darn little kids are amazing.

Our team goes in cycles of a pre-season base, them some endurance work and then progressive overload. Some people love long course and will go on their own with others to do that, but I'm a scy guy. It's really not that big of a deal once you get used to it it's your new normal it only seems intimidating b/c it's new and a fresh challenge. Once you do it, if you do it, you will be thinking 'what was I worried about?'. At some point I think a swimmer has to decide if energy conservation is the goal or going as fast as they possibly can is the goal. I think endurance crazy people doing 20k swims and what not those people absolutely have to build around energy conservation. For me it's training for a 500 it's not like I'm running around the world so it's about how long can I hold off the impeding pain burn and muscle shut down. Focusing on dps, 2 beat kicks or bilateral breathing isn't going to get me on the podium in an all out 500 the winners would be drying off when I have 100 to go:(
Are you saying that 100% of your time is spent in practicing swimming at various speeds to exhaustion?

My understanding is that the difference with TI is that some time is spent in form perfection as manifested by developing insight in the interplay of stroke rate and stroke length, or its reciprocal, SPL. How much would be a matter of personal preference, I guess.

Do you spend any time or mental energy at all monitoring your SPL?

For me, it's a no-brainer; my technique is so weak yet that I have to concentrate on SPL to get it down, and then to guard against any climbing up as I fatigue. Before my technique solidifies, any metabolic overtraining would be wasted as I start to practice and ingrain my deteriorating technique. Would be nice to know my stroke technique was solid without having to constantly pay attention to it!
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