Total Immersion Forums  

Go Back   Total Immersion Forums > Freestyle
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 04-13-2015
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,898
Zenturtle
Default Please explain

Reading this a lot of times and cant make sense of it

The arm or muscle shouldn't be what moves you forward but the weight shift from your core/torso (much more mass)

Can anybody explain how a weightshift translates in forward movement?
What is exactly meant by weightshift?<
Letting the parts above water sink in the water and taking the body along causing it to roll?

Last edited by Zenturtle : 04-13-2015 at 06:25 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 04-14-2015
fooboo fooboo is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 219
fooboo
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
The arm or muscle shouldn't be what moves you forward but the weight shift from your core/torso (much more mass)

Can anybody explain how a weightshift translates in forward movement?
What is exactly meant by weightshift?<
Yep, we both might say it is couter-intuitive. But... it works.
That "hip drive" has to be connected to recovery. I know you like
to swim differently that I do. I changed everything and accepted
TI, for now.
On i.e. left side, arm extended and holding the water, I do reco-
very almost all the way down, as far as I can. To the elbow, if pos-
sible. Only then I make rotation, since there is no way to avoid it.
Weight shifts "naturally". What is physics behind, I'd left to some-
body else. I set a kick and find it necessary. When rolling to right
side, I anchor, making left arm vertical catch. I do not pull anymore.
Just let forearm in place and hold strongly. Jump over (or whatever).
The roll cannot be in place, since I use recovery to direct forward.
"Hip" is original choice of the word. I found it wrong for non English
readers. It is not the hip itself, right? The very core, all the muscles
between shoulders and knees. My understanding.
Best regards.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 04-14-2015
CoachBobM CoachBobM is offline
Coach
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 647
CoachBobM
Default

There are really two parts to the equation:

1) The rotation of your core body about the axis of your spine helps to drive the motion of your stroking arm relative to your body. You can demonstrate this by standing with the side of your body against a wall and stretching your hand on that side as high on the wall as you can, and then rotating your body toward the wall while keeping your fingertips on the same vertical line. You will find that the rotation of your body inevitably causes your fingertips to move down the wall. Since your stroking arm is holding onto your position in the water, the rotation of your body will push your body past that point, thereby moving you forward.

2) When you do a high elbow recovery, the weight of your recovering arm helps to drive the rotation of your core body, thereby pushing your body past your stroking arm as described in the previous point. The force of gravity on your recovering arm is therefore helping to push your body forward in the water is a manner somewhat analogous to the way gravity drives your body forward when your are running (i.e., you are perpetually standing on one leg leaning forward, begin to fall forward, and swing the other leg forward in time to break your fall).

Does that make more sense?


Bob
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 04-14-2015
fooboo fooboo is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 219
fooboo
Default

Thanks, Bob!
If I might ask, at what moment you (personally) start rotation?
Nowadays, I prolonged waiting period, till I mail-slot recovery
arm as deep as possible. No splash, no hurry, suits me.
Do you intentionally drive hip to rotate or is happens itself?
Best regards.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 04-14-2015
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,898
Zenturtle
Default

Hi Fooboo,

You give an impression of how the swimming motions feel to you.
I can more or less imagine your swimming, but I am mainly interested in the simple mechanics behind the whole concept.
We cant explain everything with simple physics, there is still a lot of magic left, but the weightshift thing in TI is an essential in the stroke, so I like to have some understanding how it is supposed to work.

My opinion so far is that its more a way of describing a connected feeling between recovering arm, pulling arm, core and kick.
This is essentia/desirable in all freestyle teachings I think.

You say you dont pull anymore. Terry says, just hold your place or something like that. I can agree thats an impression to strive for during swimming but its not whats really happening for an outside observer.

If you stand straight, feet next to each other and take a big step forward starting with your left leg, you can say you go forward because you spear your left leg forward and hold position with your right leg.
You could also say that you push off actively with your right leg and thats what takes the left leg forward.
Both describe the same action, only in a different way.
In reality, both legs are actively involved in taking the forward step.
In my view, TI simply chooses the first description and others the second one.

Still doesnt give an explanation how a weightshift gives propulsion.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 04-14-2015 at 07:35 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 04-14-2015
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,898
Zenturtle
Default

Hi Bob,

Thanks for taking the time to discuss this item again with a sceptical (but genuinly interested) reader ;~).

About your first point with the wall test. I am standing next to the wall, right shoulder touching the wall, body in a 90 degree angle looking at it from above. Looking in the direction the wall is going.
Stretch the right arm upward as far as possible and hold the fingers at that spot on the wall. Right shoulder is pressing against right ear.
Now I turn the left shoulder toward the wall, feet stay next to each other, so I am twisting my body.
What happens to the fingers that are pressing against the wall?
Almost nothing. Maybe the fingers slide back 1 cm but thats it.
What to conclude from this?
Am I doing it wrong?

About the roll, how much does the weight of the recovering arm and shoulder contribute to the roll in your opinion or perception?

Last edited by Zenturtle : 04-14-2015 at 08:23 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 04-14-2015
fooboo fooboo is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 219
fooboo
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
You say you dont pull anymore. Terry says, just hold your place or something like that.
My anchoring hand stays on the same place. As anchor should.
I "jump" over. Jump is not proper word, bounce, whatever.
At the moment I don't pull, kick or whatever to make propulsion.
I will tell you what I do to go forward. I spear and then "reach",
as would Terry say. Extend even more with scapula lift. It moves
me to side position, about 45 degrees. I hold the water with
dropped hand. Recovery goes and I insert slowly and tenderly.
Fingers, hand, forearm. Then arm goes forward even more under
the water. It cannot if I do not rotate. I think about arm and not
about rotation. It happens. Not good if I forgot to kick. With kick
it rocks. And not over. Vertical forearm is must have. Spite being
relaxed, I have to stiffen to keep it in place. Using muscles I
go over it. Or past it. Or under it, choose what you like.
All this I had to rethink. To swim with no pull and push? To recover
without strength? To be faster relaxing and streamlining?
Best regards.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 04-15-2015
CoachBobM CoachBobM is offline
Coach
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 647
CoachBobM
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fooboo View Post
Thanks, Bob!
If I might ask, at what moment you (personally) start rotation?
Nowadays, I prolonged waiting period, till I mail-slot recovery
arm as deep as possible. No splash, no hurry, suits me.
Do you intentionally drive hip to rotate or is happens itself?
Best regards.
I am recovering my elbow as far forward as I can, then swinging the forearm of my recovering arm forward (positioning it for a mailslot entry) and at that point initiating a hip drive as I slide my hand and forearm into the water. The hip drive is really powered by a rotational kick, while the weight of my recovering arm is helping to power the rotation of my upper body.


Bob
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 04-15-2015
Ron Bear Ron Bear is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 76
Ron Bear
Default

Broom #1: Picture holding the head of a broom 5 feet off of the ground and releasing it. It will fall straight down. It will not fall forward at all. This has nothing to do with swimming, but it is one way we commonly experience a weight shift.

Broom #2: This time use a standard broom bristles straight up, handle on the floor. When you release the broom, the handle will stay on the starting point, but the bristles and in fact most of the broom will fall forward. This is what TI wants you to achieve in swimming.

Broom #3: This broom will be up on its handle like the last one, but it is resting on a frictionless surface. Now when you release it, as the head of the broom falls forward, the handle skitters backwards. In fact the center of mass of the broom will fall straight down on the starting point. This is achieved by the bristles being forward of the starting point, but most of the handle behind the starting point. So there is forward motion of the bristles, but no NET forward motion. This is also achievable during swimming, but it is what TI wants you to avoid.

It should be obvious from the examples of brooms 2 and 3 that the difference between falling forward and not falling forward is completely dependent on how firmly the handle is gripping the floor. Recall TI phrase like “get a grip on the water”, “don’t let your hand slip”. Of course your arm and shoulders are not a rigid body like a broom handle. If your left arm is extended forward and your right arm is about to plunge, not only does your left hand need to get a good catch, but your right shoulder needs to lift. Since you are horizontal, that lift is in the forward direction. But the point here is that the right side goes forward of where the left side was because the left side holds its position. If the left side were still spearing straight forward then as the right side went forward, the left side would go back just like broom #3.

Ron
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 04-15-2015
CoachBobM CoachBobM is offline
Coach
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 647
CoachBobM
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
Hi Bob,

Thanks for taking the time to discuss this item again with a sceptical (but genuinly interested) reader ;~).

About your first point with the wall test. I am standing next to the wall, right shoulder touching the wall, body in a 90 degree angle looking at it from above. Looking in the direction the wall is going.
Stretch the right arm upward as far as possible and hold the fingers at that spot on the wall. Right shoulder is pressing against right ear.
Now I turn the left shoulder toward the wall, feet stay next to each other, so I am twisting my body.
What happens to the fingers that are pressing against the wall?
Almost nothing. Maybe the fingers slide back 1 cm but thats it.
What to conclude from this?
Am I doing it wrong?
Well, I am sort of walking through the rotation of my body, and I'm rotating about 180 degrees altogether, but my hand comes down a lot more than 1 cm. The actual motion of my stroking arm when I'm swimming is really generated by a combination of core body rotation and an arm wrestling type of motion by my leading arm (as I "reach over the hood of the VW beetle").

Quote:
About the roll, how much does the weight of the recovering arm and shoulder contribute to the roll in your opinion or perception?
I'd guess more than half. The hip part of the rotation comes from the rotational kick, but there's a limit to just how much power the kick can impart. I think that the weight of the recovering arm, if you time it correctly, generates more power. An easy way to get a feel for this is to roll back and forth between your interrupted breathing position (hand-lead sweet spot) and your skate position. When you do this, your body rotation will be powered entirely by your kick. My perception is that adding the weight of the recovering arm more than doubles the amount of power.


Bob
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are Off
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 11:09 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.