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#1
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![]() Reading this a lot of times and cant make sense of it
The arm or muscle shouldn't be what moves you forward but the weight shift from your core/torso (much more mass) Can anybody explain how a weightshift translates in forward movement? What is exactly meant by weightshift?< Letting the parts above water sink in the water and taking the body along causing it to roll? Last edited by Zenturtle : 04-13-2015 at 06:25 PM. |
#2
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![]() Quote:
That "hip drive" has to be connected to recovery. I know you like to swim differently that I do. I changed everything and accepted TI, for now. On i.e. left side, arm extended and holding the water, I do reco- very almost all the way down, as far as I can. To the elbow, if pos- sible. Only then I make rotation, since there is no way to avoid it. Weight shifts "naturally". What is physics behind, I'd left to some- body else. I set a kick and find it necessary. When rolling to right side, I anchor, making left arm vertical catch. I do not pull anymore. Just let forearm in place and hold strongly. Jump over (or whatever). The roll cannot be in place, since I use recovery to direct forward. "Hip" is original choice of the word. I found it wrong for non English readers. It is not the hip itself, right? The very core, all the muscles between shoulders and knees. My understanding. Best regards. |
#3
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![]() There are really two parts to the equation:
1) The rotation of your core body about the axis of your spine helps to drive the motion of your stroking arm relative to your body. You can demonstrate this by standing with the side of your body against a wall and stretching your hand on that side as high on the wall as you can, and then rotating your body toward the wall while keeping your fingertips on the same vertical line. You will find that the rotation of your body inevitably causes your fingertips to move down the wall. Since your stroking arm is holding onto your position in the water, the rotation of your body will push your body past that point, thereby moving you forward. 2) When you do a high elbow recovery, the weight of your recovering arm helps to drive the rotation of your core body, thereby pushing your body past your stroking arm as described in the previous point. The force of gravity on your recovering arm is therefore helping to push your body forward in the water is a manner somewhat analogous to the way gravity drives your body forward when your are running (i.e., you are perpetually standing on one leg leaning forward, begin to fall forward, and swing the other leg forward in time to break your fall). Does that make more sense? Bob |
#4
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![]() Thanks, Bob!
If I might ask, at what moment you (personally) start rotation? Nowadays, I prolonged waiting period, till I mail-slot recovery arm as deep as possible. No splash, no hurry, suits me. Do you intentionally drive hip to rotate or is happens itself? Best regards. |
#5
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![]() Hi Fooboo,
You give an impression of how the swimming motions feel to you. I can more or less imagine your swimming, but I am mainly interested in the simple mechanics behind the whole concept. We cant explain everything with simple physics, there is still a lot of magic left, but the weightshift thing in TI is an essential in the stroke, so I like to have some understanding how it is supposed to work. My opinion so far is that its more a way of describing a connected feeling between recovering arm, pulling arm, core and kick. This is essentia/desirable in all freestyle teachings I think. You say you dont pull anymore. Terry says, just hold your place or something like that. I can agree thats an impression to strive for during swimming but its not whats really happening for an outside observer. If you stand straight, feet next to each other and take a big step forward starting with your left leg, you can say you go forward because you spear your left leg forward and hold position with your right leg. You could also say that you push off actively with your right leg and thats what takes the left leg forward. Both describe the same action, only in a different way. In reality, both legs are actively involved in taking the forward step. In my view, TI simply chooses the first description and others the second one. Still doesnt give an explanation how a weightshift gives propulsion. Last edited by Zenturtle : 04-14-2015 at 07:35 AM. |
#6
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![]() Hi Bob,
Thanks for taking the time to discuss this item again with a sceptical (but genuinly interested) reader ;~). About your first point with the wall test. I am standing next to the wall, right shoulder touching the wall, body in a 90 degree angle looking at it from above. Looking in the direction the wall is going. Stretch the right arm upward as far as possible and hold the fingers at that spot on the wall. Right shoulder is pressing against right ear. Now I turn the left shoulder toward the wall, feet stay next to each other, so I am twisting my body. What happens to the fingers that are pressing against the wall? Almost nothing. Maybe the fingers slide back 1 cm but thats it. What to conclude from this? Am I doing it wrong? About the roll, how much does the weight of the recovering arm and shoulder contribute to the roll in your opinion or perception? Last edited by Zenturtle : 04-14-2015 at 08:23 AM. |
#7
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![]() Quote:
I "jump" over. Jump is not proper word, bounce, whatever. At the moment I don't pull, kick or whatever to make propulsion. I will tell you what I do to go forward. I spear and then "reach", as would Terry say. Extend even more with scapula lift. It moves me to side position, about 45 degrees. I hold the water with dropped hand. Recovery goes and I insert slowly and tenderly. Fingers, hand, forearm. Then arm goes forward even more under the water. It cannot if I do not rotate. I think about arm and not about rotation. It happens. Not good if I forgot to kick. With kick it rocks. And not over. Vertical forearm is must have. Spite being relaxed, I have to stiffen to keep it in place. Using muscles I go over it. Or past it. Or under it, choose what you like. All this I had to rethink. To swim with no pull and push? To recover without strength? To be faster relaxing and streamlining? Best regards. |
#8
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![]() Quote:
Bob |
#9
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![]() Broom #1: Picture holding the head of a broom 5 feet off of the ground and releasing it. It will fall straight down. It will not fall forward at all. This has nothing to do with swimming, but it is one way we commonly experience a weight shift.
Broom #2: This time use a standard broom bristles straight up, handle on the floor. When you release the broom, the handle will stay on the starting point, but the bristles and in fact most of the broom will fall forward. This is what TI wants you to achieve in swimming. Broom #3: This broom will be up on its handle like the last one, but it is resting on a frictionless surface. Now when you release it, as the head of the broom falls forward, the handle skitters backwards. In fact the center of mass of the broom will fall straight down on the starting point. This is achieved by the bristles being forward of the starting point, but most of the handle behind the starting point. So there is forward motion of the bristles, but no NET forward motion. This is also achievable during swimming, but it is what TI wants you to avoid. It should be obvious from the examples of brooms 2 and 3 that the difference between falling forward and not falling forward is completely dependent on how firmly the handle is gripping the floor. Recall TI phrase like “get a grip on the water”, “don’t let your hand slip”. Of course your arm and shoulders are not a rigid body like a broom handle. If your left arm is extended forward and your right arm is about to plunge, not only does your left hand need to get a good catch, but your right shoulder needs to lift. Since you are horizontal, that lift is in the forward direction. But the point here is that the right side goes forward of where the left side was because the left side holds its position. If the left side were still spearing straight forward then as the right side went forward, the left side would go back just like broom #3. Ron |
#10
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![]() Quote:
Quote:
Bob |
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