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  #31  
Old 09-24-2012
CoachGaryF CoachGaryF is offline
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You do get a little propulsion in the single arm drill, but I'd argue that it is both quantitatively AND qualitatively different from what's experienced in whole stroke swimming. As you spear into the water on single arm drill there is no anchor on the other side. Connecting spear and anchor is the name of the game. To purposefully leave one out has never been personally helpful for me.
Gary
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  #32  
Old 09-24-2012
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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So if I understand you well, our difference of opinion would come from the fact that

You: believe that you need to add up the weight of the arm falling down, which adds to the weight shift thus providing you with the little extra that's being discussed in this thread

whereas
I: believe that body rotation alone, without the added weight of an arm be enough to trigger this chain reaction.

I find this very interesting, this difference of opinion that is.

I find it interesting as both of our position are very consitent (ie, we define weight shift pretty much the same way in the end).

One of the drill I'm the most proud of has to be my isolated rotation drill, goes as follow:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8n_rqKsqU_w

Consider this as the purest *Inside* portion of the expression *Inside-out* swimming. To me, everything starts with this rotation aspect, which may explain our difference of opinion. To me, what is shown on this clip is quite simple. It has been brought to its simplest form. When left hand side sinks, right hand side goes up. In this simple equation, the sculling hand (right hand side) is helped by this weight shift, which explains why the effort perceived (talking about this push from the hand) is very very low. This is why I'm difficult to convince with theory. In fact, I believe we're both right.

I would state (after this delightful debate) that:

Weight shifts occurs anyway, with or without any recovering arm. However, weight shifts are more significant when we indeed add the weight of the extra arm. Thanks for bringing this on the table. As for the kicking aspect being mandatory for body rotation (shifts) to occur, you probably understand that this clip is a way for me, to disagree with this position.

Last edited by CharlesCouturier : 09-24-2012 at 04:46 PM.
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  #33  
Old 09-26-2012
Rajan Rajan is offline
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[quote=CoachGaryF;31234]
Quote:
The question is: at what point in the movement pattern is forward movement created? I submit that it's the moment when the recovering limb moves just forward of the anchoring limb. At that point you get two elements helping to propel you forward 1) Gravity, as you are just about mid point in the weigh shift, or the tipping point where you actually SHIFT to the other side 2) Vaulting forward off of the anchor.

This explanation I found one of the best explanation for me to understand the weight shift concept. Today in the pool it worked for me. In this position, as mentioned by coach Gary, I did not give much attention to hip drive. It (Hip Drive) happened with ease. Thanks Coach Gary

Last edited by Rajan : 09-26-2012 at 03:27 PM.
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  #34  
Old 09-27-2012
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachGaryF View Post
Is there some value to the single arm drill? I suppose there is. But that drill is very difficult to get right, the upside is both elusive and in my opinion quite small, and most people would do well to spend their limited swimming minutes on something more productive. I mostly think of single arm swimming drills in the way that a running coach might consider single leg running drills, or a skating coach would employ single blade skating drills. I doubt they use them much. I don't mean to be a contrarian. That's just my take.

Gary
just for the sake of being, well, different, the 1 armed drill is honestly one of my personal favorites. I find it very relaxing and allows me to tune into the fine body movements and how the recovery, spearing and stroking affect not only my horizontal balance front to back, but also my position in hte water up and down. One -armed drills help smooth out my breathing, help me eliminate lifting of the head and help my discover exactly when rotation...to each side...is optimally achieved.

I agree it's hard to get right but only if you (or your coach) doesn't know how to do it. When I was told by Terry to pause in the skate position, rather than the arm at the side having completed the stroke, the value of the drill went up a thousand percent.

I recall the first time I tried to do a one-armed drill I honestly thought I'd drown. I still remember the lane I was in, the pool I was in (far left lane, Pitt 50m indoor pool) and how I nearly ended up at the bottom! I did not attempt another 1 armed drill for 5 years until the coral springs coach training that I interned at many years later. Then...sudden transformation of the drills usefulness for me. A lot happened to my stroke between those two moments however!

I find the drill helpful for students who simply cannot stop "PULLING" in order to create body rotation, or who lack awareness of how far the sink with a high recovery and uncontrolled splashing into the water.
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  #35  
Old 09-27-2012
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
just for the sake of being, well, different, the 1 armed drill is honestly one of my personal favorites. I find it very relaxing
You'll never miss an occasion to throw me off my chair.

Long story, still debating this with some of my very good pals, but to me one's ability to feel relaxed whilst swimming single arms drill says a lot about one's overall (not just pulling here, but I'm really referring to the inside-out swimming paradigm) efficiency.

Depicts that there are no loss in momentum. In fact if one does the single arm properly, putting the body rotation to the task, one can book this drill with a pull buoy, thus in theory relying solely on the propulsion provided by one arm. This one could also be renamed high elbow pulling by necessity drill.

Like I often say anyway, the most beautiful thing with the single arm drill, is when you actually leave it after having done each arm individually, and that you now put the two together. Makes you feel... Kaizen? ;-)

Last edited by CharlesCouturier : 09-27-2012 at 11:16 AM.
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  #36  
Old 04-19-2015
kalinma kalinma is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by terry View Post
As to how we move forward with weight shift, it seems pretty evident to me that anchoring the hand and forearm at our foremost point allows it.
I sure wish I could get the hang of anchoring the hand and forearm. Unfortunately, I am still pushing water back--and slipping a lot of it.
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  #37  
Old 04-20-2015
kalinma kalinma is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachKevin View Post
That's the Kinetic Chain I mentioned before - kick... then rotate... then lengthen. The rotating body doesn't - can't, really - propel itself, but in conjunction with the correctly timed kick & lengthening movements propulsion happens. And timing is everything.
This is beginning to make sense to me. I had been focusing on kicking and pulling on the same side because I'd found that to be quite tricky when trying to learn the two-beat kick. Today, when I tried to focus on "reaching" or "lengthening" with my spearing arm, I seemed to get some forward momentum. At least the tiles on the bottom looked to be going by a little faster. That forward momentum had been eluding me. It makes sense when you think of the "corkscrew" motion that people refer to. Now if I could just get the kick -> rotate -> spear/lengthen motion down with the correct timing, I might get some real forward momentum. Anyone else had a similar experience?
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  #38  
Old 04-20-2015
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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If you got an anchor with the stroking arm its easier use that anchor as a pivot point.

If you just float, let the right arm point downward in the water and hold a bit of static tension in that arm. Lift the elbow of the right arm some, so there is a 90-110 degree bent at the elbow and the hand is at the same with as the shoulder.
Now kick with the right leg down, not from the knee, but from the center of your body with an almost straight leg.
Corkscrew your left shoulder down making a diagonal connection form the top of your right foot straight through the core to your left shoulder,
At the same time enter-extend your left arm thinking in forward direction.
If its right you will feel you are vaulting over and past that right arm thats anchored in the water.
You can practice this basic connection floating with a little bit of movement.
During swimming you should feel more or less the same only with complete movements.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 04-20-2015 at 06:36 AM.
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  #39  
Old 04-20-2015
Mike Wray Mike Wray is offline
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[QUOTE If 'weight shift' means the strategic use of gravity rather than muscular effort, and gravity pulls downwards, how can it be used to propel you forwards?
[/quote]

The answer is "It can't"
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  #40  
Old 04-20-2015
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CoachStuartMcDougal CoachStuartMcDougal is offline
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The weight recovery arm (combined with body roll) spearing forward at a gentle downward slope. Much like a child sliding down a slide at the playground. Gravity takes the child from the top of the slide to the bottom of slide until feet touch the ground, and often momentum from mass will carry them a few steps further. That forward momentum or direction comes from gravity combined with the actual slope of the slide.

Stuart
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