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  #21  
Old 07-16-2010
haschu33 haschu33 is offline
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Location: Hamburg, Germany
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haschu33
Default An update...

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
...
So go ahead and initiate the catch as you have nicely described it, getting yoru "grip" on the water. Then have sole focus on rotation of your core and spearing your lead arm as it parts the water in front of you.
Changed my focus in this way. It feels good, yes, the catch now feels like 'hugging the water'. And I do like this feeling of momentum when spearing the arm to it's target.

Still, I am slightly frustrated. No progress somehow. I worked my way down from 1.6 to 1.0 with the tempo trainer, on several days. The 1.6 with an SPL of 37 is way too slow and I had the feeling I had to wait in the glide for the tempo trainer to beep. 1.5 was similar. From 1.4 to 1.2 I had a constant rate of 43, not really low. Felt most comfortable with 1.2. In the 1.1 lap I had a feeling of really good spearing, but the SPL was up at 45. 1.0 was too fast - my stroke broke down. The 50 m pool still is a challenge.

I am winded after 50 m with bilateral breathing, with breathing every second stroke it is a lot better but I'd like to do more non-breathing strokes...

So, as I said, I am slightly frustrated. Although in reality everything or at least something gets a little better every time I am in the pool. I managed to do some laps with a breath every second stroke in the 25m and my stroke rate was not worse than doing only one or two breaths in the whole lap. And that even on my bad breathing side.

Probably my expectations are too high. I know I have to hang in there... ;-)

Thanks for your support.



P.S. I think 'pull' really is a bad word for that phase of the stroke. 'Anchoring' is a lot more appropriate. In German swimming terminology they even differentiate that into a 'pull' and a 'pressure' phase, meaning after pulling you 'press' water backwards. Both is quite ineffective, I can see that everyday in my pool. Among those amateur swimmers like me there is almost not a single one who has a nice looking and effective stroke. If there is someone coming closer to that, it is usually a woman. The boys like to go for the 'brute force' approach. Amazingly enough, although I am a beginner and far from being a good or fast swimmer, I found no one of them swimming faster than me in a single lap. Very strange. Can only mean that there stroke is even worse than mine. And, I am still learning ... there is hope, I suppose ...
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  #22  
Old 07-18-2010
aquascum aquascum is offline
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Quote:
I can tell you, when you learn freestyle from the scratch there is literally nothing that comes naturally...
This really struck a cord with me, and I kept thinking about it until I realised why it struck me: my experience is just the other way around. I've been an active swimmer for 30 years, and what comes naturally for me isn't TI-conform.

I profited a lot from this threat, because I need the same kind of instructions on movement sequence and mechanics...
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  #23  
Old 07-18-2010
splashingpat splashingpat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haschu33 View Post
The 50 m pool still is a challenge. . . .
I am winded after 50 m with bilateral breathing, . . .
So, as I said, . . .
P.S. I think . . . If there is someone coming closer to that,

it is usually a woman.

The boys like to go for the 'brute force' approach. Amazingly enough, although I am a beginner and far from being a good or fast swimmer,

I found no one of them swimming faster than me in a single lap. Very strange.

Can only mean that there stroke is even worse than mine.
And, I am still learning ... there is hope,
I suppose ...
teachin' swimming to the guys!
Can it be done?
especially by a WOman?

learning from experience...
I have had some FUN with teaching a bunch of guys to swim!
and it works well when ONE OF 'EM GET IT AND SAYS
I JUST DID WHAT SHE ASKED ME TO DO!

BUT
there is always that one that says buy me dinner if i don't get it
and I buy you dinner if i do!

AND THE ANSWER TO THAT ONE GUYS!
Who'd like to give the answers to that one!!
(fill in the blanks__________________________)



i find i always learn a lot from men!
so there is still hope that just maybe you can learn from us
too!

splash'n'pat
coach'n'pat
so if it's teaching breathin' relaxin' or catchin'

i hope Ya's
learn to have
some FUN IN IT!

So HELLO DEAR FRIEND OF MINE & CHICKEN OR THE EGG NOTION

get a grip (WITH YOUR LEFT HAND)of the water
toe-flick (WITH YOUR LEFT FOOT) &
spear your (RIGHT HAND)in the water

which is going to rotate that hIP
from side to side
and do N'T forget the g l i d e of IT!

then that's the 2 beat kick!
then we'll work on the 6 beat kick
one day!

Last edited by splashingpat : 07-18-2010 at 03:55 PM.
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  #24  
Old 07-18-2010
CoachGaryF CoachGaryF is offline
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Rhythmically I liken the kick/spear timing to that of a grace note in music: the kick occurs just prior to spearing in earnest. My downbeat in the kick finishes at about mid-spear, or at about the time that I would be flat on my belly if I actually stayed there. Just confirmed that watching a video of my swimming and on the ubiquitous Shinji video (visibile at the :50-:51 second mark here.)
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  #25  
Old 07-18-2010
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haschu33 View Post
Changed my focus in this way. It feels good, yes, the catch now feels like 'hugging the water'. And I do like this feeling of momentum when spearing the arm to it's target.

Still, I am slightly frustrated. No progress somehow. I worked my way down from 1.6 to 1.0 with the tempo trainer, on several days. The 1.6 with an SPL of 37 is way too slow and I had the feeling I had to wait in the glide for the tempo trainer to beep. 1.5 was similar. From 1.4 to 1.2 I had a constant rate of 43, not really low. Felt most comfortable with 1.2. In the 1.1 lap I had a feeling of really good spearing, but the SPL was up at 45. 1.0 was too fast - my stroke broke down. The 50 m pool still is a challenge.
Progress cannot always be measured objectively in terms of tempo & stroke count. The difference in tempo of .1 seconds is huge and a range of 1.0 to 1.6 is vast. Now that you seem to have found "comfort" in the 1.2 range, and your SPL seemed constant down to 1.2s, start working in increments of .02 and even .01 seconds above and below 1.2 seconds.

Here's a sample set:
6 x 50 @
1.2, 1.22, 1.24, 1.26, 1.28, 1.3
On each repeat try to maintain your newly developed feel of "hugging" the water and count your strokes. As you go gradually from 1.2 to 1.3 does your stroke count go down at all?

Now reverse the set:
5x50 @
1.28, 1.26, 1.24, 1.22, 1.20
Try to maintain the same sense of glide & momentum on the way down.

When you arrive back at 1.20, how does your beginning and ending stroke count compare?

On a different day, after a warmup and some 50s at 1.20 seconds...as long as you are feeling at ease there, do this test set allowing the same amount of time for pushoff before starting yoru strokes (for consistency)

11 x 50 starting at 1.20 seconds, decrease by .01s each 50. Take adequate rest inbetween. Count your strokes for each 50

How does your stroke count change as you go down? Does it stay the same or go up? If it goes up, did your increased strokes still result in a net decrease in time or increase? (multiply your stroke count + beeps for pushoff times the rate).

If you are still getting faster at 1.10 seconds, you can play around with new sets ranging from 1.10 to 1.20 on a new practice day. If your time got slower (indicating that your form broke down to the poitn where increased strokes were too many, resulting in a slower time), then spend additional time playing in the 1.20 to 1.30 tempo range.

Theres no need to be frustrated, it's all just information to gather and work with.
__________________
Suzanne Atkinson, MD
Level 3 USAT Coach
USA Paralympic Triathlon Coach
Coach of 5 time USA Triathlon Triathlete of the Year, Kirsten Sass
Steel City Endurance, LTD
Fresh Freestyle

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  #26  
Old 07-18-2010
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachGaryF View Post
Rhythmically I liken the kick/spear timing to that of a grace note in music: the kick occurs just prior to spearing in earnest. My downbeat in the kick finishes at about mid-spear, or at about the time that I would be flat on my belly if I actually stayed there. Just confirmed that watching a video of my swimming and on the ubiquitous Shinji video (visibile at the :50-:51 second mark here.)
Gary, I love the grace note analogy!
__________________
Suzanne Atkinson, MD
Level 3 USAT Coach
USA Paralympic Triathlon Coach
Coach of 5 time USA Triathlon Triathlete of the Year, Kirsten Sass
Steel City Endurance, LTD
Fresh Freestyle

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  #27  
Old 07-19-2010
haschu33 haschu33 is offline
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Posts: 787
haschu33
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
...
Here's a sample set:
6 x 50 @
1.2, 1.22, 1.24, 1.26, 1.28, 1.3
...
I saw that and estimated: 6x50 @ 1.2 + 6x50 @1.22+ 6x50...
sums up in something like 36 laps for the first set, more than 50 for the whole thing. Ohhhhkaaay - 'steel city endurance' ... she is a little crazy ... but if the coach says it - figured the whole thing would take me more than 1,5 hours to do it but was willing to try it out.
Got it, it's only one at each TT time, so that's a little too open for random disturbances I suppose, so maybe two or three laps for each TT settings. I'll try and report...

Actually made it to the pool today but couldn't work through the whole set. I had SPLs from 37 to 45, randomly distributed, with the majority on my usual 43, couldn't detect a pattern. Will try again.

Don't know about the craziness ;-) I guess there is a certain amount of craziness in TI swimmers anyway. If you insist I'll withdraw of course and broadcast the exact opposite :-)
Anyway, not really serious here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
...
Theres no need to be frustrated, it's all just information to gather and work with.
Yes, I actually know, but sometimes... you know ...
Thanks for reminding!
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  #28  
Old 07-20-2010
haschu33 haschu33 is offline
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Join Date: Jul 2009
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Posts: 787
haschu33
Default Update...

I went to the pool today. My usual enthusiasm for swimming was replaced by a growing resistance that started building up the last days. My arms, particularly my shoulders had a clear message: YES, NO SWIMMING TODAY! Not that they hurt, actually no at all, but they felt sooo tired - I think I should take a couple of days off. Lately I changed from my usual drilling interspersed with laps to doing hardly any drills (I even had one day without spear switches, unthinkable) and relatively many laps. And since I am in a 50m pool the laps suddenly are twice as long. I guess I was overdoing it a little.
Anyway, it was more of an off-day (hello to KatieK). I wanted to quit after each lap but kept with my Tempo Trainer session (hello to CoachSu*). Started from SPL 44-45 and it slowly went down to 42-43. Then I got cramps in the calves, tried to do some breaststroke: shoulders said: NO! tried to do some backstroke, legs said: NO! so I did a couple of really exhausting freestyle laps to finish off (a little stubbornly, I admit) and called it a day :-(

No, not frustrated, weather is nice, water is nice, no complaints. Just one of these days..


Happy laps
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  #29  
Old 07-20-2010
dshen dshen is offline
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Join Date: Jan 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haschu33 View Post
I saw that and estimated: 6x50 @ 1.2 + 6x50 @1.22+ 6x50...
sums up in something like 36 laps for the first set, more than 50 for the whole thing. Ohhhhkaaay - 'steel city endurance' ... she is a little crazy ... but if the coach says it - figured the whole thing would take me more than 1,5 hours to do it but was willing to try it out.
Actually I think she meant 6 x 50 total, each lap lowering/raising the tempo trainer by .02 seconds.

So, for example:
lap 1: 50m (or yards) at 1.2s
lap 2: 50 @ 1.22s
lap 3: 50 @ 1.24s
lap 4: 50 @ 1.26s
lap 5: 50 @ 1.28s
lap 6: 50 @ 1.3s

I think that if you do 6x50 at each tempo, it will be too much for you at this stage (it does sound like an interesting workout as you describe it though!). I think you will get too tired and your form will fall apart as you get further through a set like that. It is more interesting to observe your change in neuromuscular adaptation to the miniscule change in tempo without getting overly fatigued so you're not imprinting bad habits.

I do these sets all the time with 25s, 50s, 75s, and 100s. It's interesting to see how you can play with tempo and SPL, and all racing against fatigue of your endurance and the current state of your nervous system to maintain good form.
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  #30  
Old 07-22-2010
haschu33 haschu33 is offline
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haschu33
Default Update...

Thanks dshen, I think I already got the right arithmetic. TI coaches seem to be quiet sound after all.


I was in the pool today.
No TT - wanted to do a relaxed swim. Water was nice, it was quite hot, pool very crowded, hard to find a spot from where I could get right through.
Did some Zen skates and then a slow lap with fingers gliding on the water on recovery. Automatically counted: 31 strokes. But it was more of a drill than swimming. Then a good nice 'normal' lap with 39, not too bad.
In the last lap I tried to be at the other end in front of that other amateur freestyler like me - he was already half way through. I really tried it, and in the last part of the lap I wanted to go even faster, I did not increase the strokes but really tried to lengthen each stroke even more - completely forgot about catch & pull. It must have been 1.1 or 1.0 on the TT scale - and I counted 42 strokes (difficult to get rid of that counting...). Not too bad, was probably the fastest lap I ever did.

I noticed a negative side-effect that I thought would come only when you swim the 100m in less than a minute: I get more and more attention in the pool. Of course, when you are a fitness swimmer trying really hard and then there is the elderly guy overtaking you and he obviously uses less strokes and doesn't even kick all the time (and you cannot see the work it takes him to do that)- you got to look what that is.
But I definitively don't like it, I'd like to remain unseen in my laps, at least until I do the 100 in less than a minute ... ...
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