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Old 08-28-2017
Streak Streak is offline
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 376

Originally Posted by Talvi View Post

Streak: rub it in why don't you? Seriously though congrats on those times! I meanwhile remain mired.
Not wanting to rub it in at all. More like if can get there anyone can!
In true TI fashion, I did not go looking for the speed, the speed came to me.
More recently I have been concentrating on reaching further, really digging in with my spearing hand to get a great grip with my whole hand and forearm.

I found the fist drill really helping to get that feel of great grip.

Keep it up and make sure to keep on reporting your progress.
Coach Stuart McDougal knocking me into shape
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Old 10-22-2017
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Lappeenranta, Finland
Posts: 1,675

Originally Posted by Danny View Post
There may be some confusion here about what we mean by the catch, when it starts and when it ends. I find it helpful to focus on the position of my elbow on my spearing hand. The elbow and the upper arm stay in place until my recovering shoulder is below my head, but this does not mean that the hand is not moving. In fact, as the recovering shoulder goes down, the shoulder on the other side will rotate in order to keep the elbow from moving with respect to the rest of my body. As it rotates, my elbow goes into an "up" position, which allows my forearm to start to become vertical. While all of this is going on, I want minimal pressure on that hand. Once my recovering shoulder is below my head, my shoulder on the other side is rotated enough so that my forearm has a good catch on the water and now I can start to move that elbow and the entire arm backwards in concert with the shoulder on that side. The main point here is that the rate at which my catch is occurring on one side is tightly coupled to the position of the recovering shoulder on the other side.
Hi Danny

So your spear elbow is moving up with the rotation of your shoulder-yoke right - rather than staying at the same level in the water?

Thoughts - there seem to me to be three core elements:
1. easy/relaxed breathing
2. streamline (legs at surface/small kick)
3. timing

I tend to focus on 2. but think that 1. is the most important as after that with relaxation streamline comes naturally. But I wonder if 3. (despite coming third) trumps the other two. Capable breathing and streamling led to me being able to swim "distances". Relaxed breathing increases these, but it seems to me that then timing is what results in pace improvement/efficiency i.e distance per stroke.pound (the effortinput to each stroke)

After recent reversals, I suspect the catch can as well be too late as too early. Both seem to me to be having the same result on pace. Perhaps as with any balancing, overcorrection/overemphasis is the problem.

I think my advances such as they were came from focusing on getting a relaxed breathing going. This made it easier (so my theory goes) to feel streamline and then to focus on timing. Now I have "overbalanced"

So, anything that ties things together offers hope imo.
A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
~ George Kelly

"The water is your don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov
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Old 10-22-2017
Danny Danny is offline
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,442

Hi Talvi,

You may have already seen this clip, but I think it shows what I was trying to say better than I can.

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Old 10-22-2017
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Hamburg
Posts: 1,104

Hello Talvi,

great, you're back again!

Think we're once more (back?) in the hen and egg problem. So let me take the egg's part (or is it the hen's one?).

Think it's very diffcult if not impossible to take easy/relaxed breathes if you're not well balanced and not swimming with good streamline. If not, relaxed/easy breathing will be something like self-deception. That does'nt mean you're not able to swim fast or have to feel your breathing as tensed or heavy. But you'll never realize how easy and relaxed it might be, when balanced and streamlined well.

Timing definitely is a critical point and much room for most of us to work in to eternity. But it's not a single point usable as FP but many. And it's hard to seperate them. So it will be better to work with some special FPs related to special "there-then-points" or small "chain parts" of our whole stroke. And like with all technique parts in swimming it will take some time, patience and aware mind to let the pieces of the puzzle fall into the right place. (One of my greatest experience in swimming are the (for me only) one-three weeks when I achieved continues laps from 300m to 1500m. There some of pieces fall into their places...)

Talvi, hard to believe how anyone should/could be overbalanced. OK, it's possible to be balanced and extremely muscle-tensed at same time, but then your body isn't in balance with your mind. And the more you go to active streamline it will become more and more difficult and effortful to hold this tensed-balance. Or OK, you can put so much effort/time, exercises in what you think might be good balance, that all other parts of the stroke a neglected or even become worse; but then it's necessary to find a new "balance of drills".

I think you can tie things together, if you choose the right FPs and put them in an overlapping chain. FE: Smallest possible rotation-extension phase without splashes and with palm up- elbow swing far away from body. Next day: Elbow swing far away from body-elbow never behind the scapular plane-leading elbow-dragging fingertip. Next day: Breathe as soon as possible-leading elbow-dragging fingertips-looking back down latest if leading elbow is at shoulder height...

Also alternating FPs on right and left side may tie some parts together: Hand Extension-patient and stable lead arm in right height and width-elbow at same depth - hand and lower arms forceless falls into catch...

And as always with TI: One FP at time, two if you feel secure with both seperated and three just before it becomes boring ;-)

Best regards,
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