Total Immersion Forums  

Go Back   Total Immersion Forums > Freestyle
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 04-29-2017
CoachStuartMcDougal's Avatar
CoachStuartMcDougal CoachStuartMcDougal is offline
coach
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,353
CoachStuartMcDougal
Default Air in lungs makes you less buoyant?

I just read a swim article stating: "Having lungs full of air causes legs to sink -- empty lungs to remain buoyant". Apparently air is heavier than water in certain areas of the world, possibly on the moon too.

Not having enough air in lungs causes hips to sink, this is just a matter of physics on earth. I often notice swimmers empty lungs too quickly in an effort to dump co2 or used air, but then drop 2" or more and then never find air due to lack of buoyancy. Slow continuous exhale is important, but the bulk of exhale happens when rolling to breathe.

Try the cannonball test. In the pool, fill lungs full of air, move into a cannonball shape with knees to chest, head in water, body stable on surface in rounded shape - begin to exhale quickly and discover how much air you need in lungs before dropping to the bottom of the pool. Every -body- is different, some will sink fast (mostly guys) and others drop slowly or remain at the surface. This test gives each swimmer an idea of how much air is needed in lungs to remain buoyant and balanced.

A good example of the body sinking without enough air in lungs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3VV4PwIBCQ

Stuart
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 04-29-2017
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,898
Zenturtle
Default

I also have never understood the idea to release extra air to improve balance.
The lungs are the pivot point. The position of the pivot point doesnt influence the balance around the pivot point itself.
Taking the pivot point down takes the whole system down though.
Balancing with a kickboard under the chest (simulate very big lungs) at the height of the lungs only makes balancing and breathing easier is my experience.

Its probably an advice for people who hardly empty the lungs, hardly exchange air and hold their breath too much.
Letting the body sink a bit extra by breathing out more if you already feel the head is quite low is indeed a scary hurdle to overcome.
Its probably this release of tension when overcoming this hurdle and being comfortable with the slightly lower head and chest (and legs) that makes the balance improve. When comfortable with a lower front end, the action of pressing the T feels more natural , and thats the main resulting balance improver, whatever the amount of air in the lungs.
(works even better with more air in lungs, is useless without air in lungs)

Last edited by Zenturtle : 04-29-2017 at 08:03 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 04-29-2017
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Hamburg
Posts: 1,104
WFEGb
Default

Hello,

what I found while working with students learnig to breathe, as ZT wrote, the more important part seems to be most possible relaxation in the upper body and arm(s) in front not so much the amount of held air. But soft, steady exhalaton with a face as "silly as possible" will be a great help for that.

Best regards,
Werner
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 04-30-2017
sclim sclim is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,499
sclim
Default

I have a conflicted point of view on this. Sometimes it makes sense to keep in as much air as possible between mouth-breaths. Other times if I'm not careful it tends to raise the torso ahead of the hips; I'm less aware of my legs at that point of time, which likely means some relative sinking of the back end.

It works best when with a full lungful I get just the amount of downward angle in my lead hand spear, letting my head drop just a subtle amount and pushing my chest down, maintaining a non-exaggerated long straight body axis, and my legs seem to behave themselves gliding in my streamline shadow without too much physical effort. But it is difficult, and most of the time I don't get it. But at least I know when I'm getting it.

Other end of the spectrum was today -- our first wet-suit day in the pool for the year in our TI swim club. It was nuts, bouncing like a cork on top of the water, or at least that's how it felt. I had to consciously control my tendency to over-rotate. But once I got it, I was able to get crazy huge long strokes and glides. I easily got under 18 SPL (25m pool, 162 cm height). But now I remember last year even with a wet suit I couldn't get as low as this SPL number. Must be something to do with some balance skill and core control that I have acquired gradually over this past year. But now I know how "normal" buoyant people feel floating. OK, maybe, this wet-suit assisted float is unnaturally exaggerated, but without it I'm usually lying at the bottom of the pool. And absolutely no problem merely rotating my face slightly to breath.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 04-30-2017
novaswimmer novaswimmer is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 228
novaswimmer
Default

"Having lungs full of air causes legs to sink -- empty lungs to remain buoyant"

Yeah, that doesn't really make sense. Either way, my legs sink.

But I can usually stay more 'horizontal' if I don't maintain huge lungfuls of air. Plus, I'd get exhausted holding all that air in. Whatever keeps me relaxed is the most helpful. So a slow, relaxed release of air throughout the stroke, a quick extra puff exhaled as I turn my head up to water, then quick inhale. Repeat.

Last edited by novaswimmer : 04-30-2017 at 10:21 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 04-30-2017
sclim sclim is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,499
sclim
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WFEGb View Post
Hello,

what I found while working with students learnig to breathe, as ZT wrote, the more important part seems to be most possible relaxation in the upper body and arm(s) in front not so much the amount of held air. But soft, steady exhalaton with a face as "silly as possible" will be a great help for that.

Best regards,
Werner
I interpret your meaning to be "with as neutral an expression" as possible, i.e. with as relaxed facial muscles as possible with minimal brain thought driving the facial muscles, as we trickle the air out through the nose.

I think I can get the "face as silly as possible" part -- maybe I'm doing it already, but I sometimes have a little trouble with the slow air trickle. I know I should not control the slowness by constricting the throat, so I'm good on that, but the need to be not too fast, not too slow maybe causes me to tense my breathing muscles (ribs/diaphragm) just a little, I think, sometimes.

Maybe I worry about it too much and I vacillate between not enough air exchange and not enough continuous buoyancy. The more I think about it, my problem has been paying so much attention to the process to see if I'm sinking more than I should, what my legs are doing, if I'm rotating too much to get air...etc. The best I've felt is some happy medium when I let the learned process just happen and I'm totally relaxed through the stroke and breathing cycle. But that happens comparatively rarely...*sigh*. I guess it's a process rather than an absolute "getting it".
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 04-30-2017
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Hamburg
Posts: 1,104
WFEGb
Default

Hello Sclim,

Quote:
...I interpret your meaning to be "with as neutral an expression" as possible, i.e. with as relaxed facial muscles as possible with minimal brain thought driving the facial muscles, as we trickle the air out through the nose.

I think I can get the "face as silly as possible" part -- maybe I'm doing it already, but I sometimes have a little trouble with the slow air trickle...
Yes, you understood exactly what I tried to say :-)

Think it's not necessary to exhale exclusively through the nose. If you don't care of your facial muscles and let them relax, your mouth may be a little open. Just be aware water doesn't enter nose and mouth and don't mind some bubbles. Doing so should result in your strived "air trickle"...

Enjoy game and sound of the bubbles and you must not show a face like for an application photo...

Best regards,
Werner
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 05-01-2017
sclim sclim is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,499
sclim
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WFEGb View Post
Hello Sclim,


Yes, you understood exactly what I tried to say :-)

Think it's not necessary to exhale exclusively through the nose. If you don't care of your facial muscles and let them relax, your mouth may be a little open. Just be aware water doesn't enter nose and mouth and don't mind some bubbles. Doing so should result in your strived "air trickle"...

Enjoy game and sound of the bubbles and you must not show a face like for an application photo...

Best regards,
Werner
That wouldn't be too bad. My "vacant" look looks merely stupid, not too bad, considering the circumstances.

But once I was practicing "Pop-Eye" mouth for breathing first left side, then right side, etc. while driving. I kept on doing it at a stop-light, and suddenly realized that the lady in the car beside me was staring at me. Luckily I wasn't doing it while leering at her.

Yes, thanks for reminding me about the sound of the bubbles, not just the sensation. I remember when I first learned the trick, it was the sound of the slow trickle of the bubbles that was the most helpful feedback in getting the trickle just right. Funny, but I had forgotten specifically to pay attention to that recently. I can't imagine why, seeing as how it was so helpful before.

Last edited by sclim : 05-01-2017 at 12:35 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 05-01-2017
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Hamburg
Posts: 1,104
WFEGb
Default

Hello Sclim,

Quote:
But once I was practicing "Pop-Eye" mouth for breathing first left side, then right side, etc. while driving. I kept on doing it at a stop-light, and suddenly realized that the lady in the car beside me was staring at me. Luckily I wasn't doing it while leering at her.
Haha.... you should have invited her for an hour TI-swimming, shouldn't you.

Best regards,
Werner
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 05-01-2017
CoachStuartMcDougal's Avatar
CoachStuartMcDougal CoachStuartMcDougal is offline
coach
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,353
CoachStuartMcDougal
Default

I've seen (actually heard) swimmers humming in the water to control the exhale. Then dump air quickly as they roll to breathe. Although I don't hum, I sometimes try it to feel the difference between my slow controlled exhale vs humming. It's about the same, but humming is a bit slower. In any case, humming to control the exhale will give swimmers an idea of how to control the exhale and not dump air too early

Stuart
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are Off
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 06:50 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.