Rotation/Catch/Kick Synchronization and Timing Variants

[WFEGb]

Hello Tom,

I watched the Shinji and sons video, but I don't see much difference between the timing between them. Can you explain what you are seeing that is different?

Lately I have been focusing on not letting my front arm drift down to the catch until the wrist of the spearing arm is in the water....

What I thought to see is better seen with Kyle. Shinji's recovery is most times a tiny bit faster than Kyle's. Shinji seems to swim with continous movement all his stroke. Kyle catches up this time with a faster spear (and synchronized catch-press. Especially to his breathing side he rotates a bit further. It affects me as the more accelerated even more aggressive part of his stroke.

Hmm... misunderstood you a long time. You are swimming with a more patient lead arm than before? So if catch and press has to be done while the spearing arm is moving forward in front below surface this is a much faster and more accelerated move. If you still can hold your arm full of water without churning it more around, you must swim faster. GREAT! (Seems to me that Kyle and Shinji are nearly ready with their catch when wrist enters the water, so it does not relate to what what you meant.)

Now I'm astonished that you feel your faster catch-press-phase even as more effortless. Seems you will get it from right applied and very right converted rotational energy...

Best regards,
Werner

PS: Sometimes my "English tongue" has a knot... difficult enough to explain what I mean in mother tongue.

[Tom Pamperin]

Originally Posted by WFEGb

Hmm... misunderstood you a long time. You are swimming with a more patient lead arm than before?

No, you understood me. I was swimming with a LESS patient lead arm, and letting the lead arm drift downward toward the catch before the spearing arm entered the water. That was an easy way to increase stroke rate while decreasing effort. But when I tested in a pool, my SPL was also up, and speed was maybe down slightly. So, swimming that way feels good, very sustainable, but not best for speed.

Lately--in the past week or so--I have been trying to keep the same feeling and kick timing while NOT letting my arm drift toward the catch. So I am back to a patient lead arm, with the lead arm not moving until the wrist of the spearing arm is in the water. And I am delaying rotation and kick to keep the same timing (kick happens as pressing arm passes shoulder--no movement before that point).

I am not sure, but I think that the patient lead arm gives a longer stroke with a slightly slower stroke rate. I really need to shoot some video to get some feedback on what I am doing, but it feels good. I have not tested it much with SPL or pace, though--I've been too busy swimming open water for uncertain distances.

Yep, I need some video.

Originally Posted by WFEGb

PS: Sometimes my "English tongue" has a knot... difficult enough to explain what I mean in mother tongue.

Well... mein Deutsch is zehr schlecht. Ich weiss nichts auf Deutsh--ihre Englisch ... wie sagt man "impresses me?"

[WFEGb]

Hello Tom,

But when I tested in a pool, my SPL was also up, and speed was maybe down slightly. So, swimming that way feels good, very sustainable, but not best for speed.

Might become interesting, if you can swim with same endurance with a slightly higher SR in the pool, if you really lost pace related to your former stroke. Maybe your feeling of lost pace only is a brain thing like: It feels better, I can swim more sustainable... that must be slower.

Last but not least IMHO, when not in competition or prepairing for it or another rigid goal, the better (healthy) feeling always beats SL and SR, especially in OW... Even FPs may help to better that better felt stroke...

Well... mein Deutsch is zehr schlecht. Ich weiss nichts auf Deutsh--ihre Englisch ... wie sagt man "impresses me?"

Thank you very much :) (Seems I'm on a low level plateau and hope Kaizen will be the right way here too...) Maybe we should try to talk "crosswise". You in German I in English. Do this sometimes with my coachfriend James, coaching in Berlin...

Best regards,
Werner

[Tom Pamperin]

Originally Posted by WFEGb

Maybe we should try to talk "crosswise". You in German I in English.

Gute Idee. Also, ich will es versuchen. (Mit die Hilfe von ein online Worterbuch--mein Wortschatz est sehr klein).

Originally Posted by WFEGb

Might become interesting, if you can swim with same endurance with a slightly higher SR in the pool, if you really lost pace related to your former stroke. Maybe your feeling of lost pace only is a brain thing like: It feels better, I can swim more sustainable... that must be slower.

Ich habe meine Geschwindikeit gepruft mit eine Uhr in eine 35m Schwimmbad, also es ist nicht nur ein Gefuhl das ich bin langsamer.

Aber ich zustimme das besser Gefuhl besiegt Geschwindikeit. Meistens... Aber wir alle wollen zu schwimmen immer schneller, nicht wahr?

(Ich habe dieser Versuch zu Deutsch sprechen Vergnugen finden--ich will jetzt eine weiterer Diskussion beginnen auf Deustch auf das Forum--aber du auf Englisch wird antworten).

Ja, das Worterbuch notwendig war!

from here on, I can't follow :(

Oh well, I'm just a spy anyway.

[Tom Pamperin]

Don't worry; I'm moving the German discussion to another thread!

[Danny]

Tom, for whatever it's worth, take a look at Terry's freestyle
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hC8ZZZhabp4
In my opinion he definitely starts moving his forward arm down before his recovering arm enters the water. In fact, it seems to me that his forward arm is close to under his shoulder when his high side arm enters the water.

I am struggling with the same issue and still playing around to decide what is best for me.

[Tom Pamperin]

Originally Posted by Danny

Tom, for whatever it's worth, take a look at Terry's freestyle
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hC8ZZZhabp4
In my opinion he definitely starts moving his forward arm down before his recovering arm enters the water. In fact, it seems to me that his forward arm is close to under his shoulder when his high side arm enters the water.

I am struggling with the same issue and still playing around to decide what is best for me.

Danny,

I agree 100%. Watching Terry's arm and kick timing is what started my experiments in this direction.

I would say that I am continuing to experiment with this idea of when/if to let the lead arm drift down toward the catch, not so much struggling with it.

Conclusions: letting the lead arm drift feels good, like I get more continuous propulsion and less glide. But pool results (in an oddball 35m pool) suggest that my SPL goes up slightly as SR increases, and speed goes slightly down. Exertion also seems to go down, though. I intend to shoot some video when I return to the U.S. this summer and will post here for feedback.

I find the patient lead arm works well, too. I have not tested SPL and pace in the pool with this focus yet. But when I keep the lead arm motionless until the wrist of the spearing arm enters, it seems like a loooong time to remain still and stable--there is a long phase of the stroke when the only thing moving is the recovering arm. That is probably very good for drag reduction--if I can actually manage to keep still!

Like so much of TI, I suspect there is not a "right" answer, but probably yet another variable to manipulate for effect. So many! Keeps things interesting...

[sclim]

Having followed the trail of your various experiments and your current conclusions, I'm not sure what to think. Not so much as to what your efficiency is -- your objective data measured as SPL in the pool demonstrates that the feeling of "easiness" with an early downward drift of the lead hand is associated with a shortened stroke, therefore a slower speed and less efficiency.

But what to make of Terry's early lead hand downward drift, and how it conflicts with his recommendation for "patient lead hand"?

Could it be that Terry's specific version of early drift downwards is not exactly the same as yours is? What I'm getting at is, could it be that Terry, with his years of exquisite sensitizing to friction and losses of efficiency, has mastered the art of sensing exactly when the right moment to allow downward drift of the fingers, so that any potential loss of streamlining in the hand forward position is made up by the efficiency of having the fingertips moving at zero velocity during the transition from glide to catch after the moment has passed when the economy of gliding has diminished due to the glide velocity dropping beyond a critical point.

Sadly, this is a question we can't ask of him. Maybe Shinji has a view on this.

[Tom Pamperin]

Originally Posted by sclim

Having followed the trail of your various experiments and your current conclusions, I'm not sure what to think. Not so much as to what your efficiency is -- your objective data measured as SPL in the pool demonstrates that the feeling of "easiness" with an early downward drift of the lead hand is associated with a shortened stroke, therefore a slower speed and less efficiency.

Well, but it's not that simple, either, because I didn't explain my conclusions fully. I have not been prioritizing fast swimming at all. I have been doing long open water sessions mostly for pure mindful enjoyment.

So I am not ready to give up on the downward drift as "slower"--my recent few pool times with drifting lead arm have shown slower pace and higher SPL to what I was doing 2 months ago, but the comparison is not all that valid--(e.g. 1:10/70m in a 35m pool compared to 1:06/75m in a 25m pool). More importantly, I have not re-measured since I went back to a patient lead arm, so it's apples and ostriches right now.

I look forward to getting back in a 25m pool and doing some side-by-side comparisons of speed and SPL. That should happen this month.

What I have found, though, is that I can keep much of the same feel to the stroke whether I let the lead arm drift or not. It has become a variable I can adjust on purpose. The one non-variable essential seems to be that the kick be timed to happen as the pressing arm passes the shoulder.