Elbow question

[sclim]

Originally Posted by Zenturtle

is it your breathing or non breathing side?
Do you still use your C shape pull style?

The start of your recovery technique could also lead to shoulder problems.
Tennis elbows could be caused by too much tricep loaded rear end pushing.

There has been a lot of "Tennis Elbow" hypothesis thrown around, and to clear the air, I should remind that it is highly unlikely that true tennis elbow could be caused by anything Tom is doing swimming (although Werner has a point in that Tom should consider that it may possibly be true tennis elbow after all, but triggered by a completly unrelated activity done OUTSIDE the pool).

"Tennis Elbow" (which, ironically is a misnomer in that the pain is not arising in the true elbow joint at all, but rather from the lateral epicondyle -- that is, the bony knob on the lateral edge of the far end of the humerus -- and from the adjacent parts of the fibro-muscular attachment to that lateral epicondyle, the muscles being the extensors and supinators of the wrist, often referred to as the common origin of the extensor group, or, simply, the extensor origin) is an overuse injury arising from overuse of the extensor group, commonly from over gripping, especially with superimposed repeated resisted impact, and from repetitive, forceful wrist extension and supination (think backhand in tennis), none of which actions are likely to be associated with swimming.

Tom has specified that he feels very relaxed in the hands. It's plausible that some new unrecognized wrist force is sneaking in, but the water resistive force during the propulsive phase tends to force the wrist into extension, which requires the action of the wrist and finger flexors to resist, not the extensors, so, again, to me it seems very unlikely that what we are trying to identify is any variant of tennis elbow.

[Grant]

Thanks for the detailed info regarding tennis elbow. Brings back memories of my university days and friends in medical school sharing their experience of their anatomy class. Still blows me away at the amount detail you guys absorbed.
Swim on.

[Zenturtle]

I dont know how its called. I only remember having had a bit of elbow pain after much emphasis on the push phase of the stroke a few year ago.
Probably this was just a sort of overload.

[Tom Pamperin]

Thanks for the input, everyone. The pain definitely goes away after a couple of days of not swimming--but there's some tightness in the right arm and up into the front part of the shoulder. That shoulder tension seems to relax when I'm mindful about pulling my shoulders back to have better posture.

So the pain presents in the elbow, but it seems like there's more involved than just an elbow. Some imbalance of flexibility more than strength, it seems.

[WFEGb]

Hello Tom,

how about "going a quick walk" through the balance foundations from head-alignment in SG up to relaxed recovery and spearing with active streamline, without any FPs on the "pulling" arm?

Best reards,
Werner

[Tom Pamperin]

Got back in the pool today after taking a week off for my tight elbow/forearm/shoulder to recover some--swam maybe 1600m, no repeat longer than 75m, and worked on directing ALL of my awareness into the high side arm to avoid feeling any "pull" in the stroke, with no effort at a vertical forearm (after today, I think that trying for a vertical forearm was the main cause of the problem). I also shortened my stroke and swam the entire session at 16-17 spl, rather than 15-16 as usual.

I got through the whole session with no new pain or tightness (there's a slight lingering tightness in the forearm which didn't get worse after swimming today). I swam a couple of sets of 5x50m on 1:10 trying to stay very relaxed, with no pressure on arms, concentrating on relaxed wide recovery led by elbow. I was also very careful to try to keep the elbow bent at 90 degrees during recovery, or slightly wider angle.

That all seemed to do the trick to avoid pain. Speed sure dropped off--I usually swim 50m repeats at :45/50m, and swam these at :52-53 instead. I definitely wasn't working as hard--on purpose--so that's fine.

For the moment, it seems like my path forward is to purposefully decrease my DPS (increase SPL) to avoid any subconscious muscling through/pulling for a longer stroke. And to keep awareness on the high side arm and not let it creep back to "pulling." This will probably lead me toward a higher SR as well, which is something I've been meaning to explore anyway.

It'll be interesting to see how the stroke develops with a less vertical forearm, higher SPL, and higher SR. My goal (short-term) is to see how long I can hold a 1:30/100m pace (hoping for a 7:30 500m) but I'm in no particular hurry about that.

Any thoughts about whether a vertical forearm is even necessary at any point? And how to do it without injury? If it's going to cause pain/tightness/injury, I'll either have to avoid it or find a way to do it differently.

Thanks!

[WFEGb]

Hello Tom,

Great! seems you found the right trigger to invoid pain. And seems your patiently enough to play with a 0.01s plusminus-tweak on TT while having a look at your GZ. (Some room to your upper SPL?)

Any thoughts about whether a vertical forearm is even necessary at any point? And how to do it without injury? If it's going to cause pain/tightness/injury, I'll either have to avoid it or find a way to do it differently.

Stuart posted sometimes the Dave Cameron's video about HEC. Maybe it's worth to implement it into your FPs. When shifting your FPs back to below surface have in mind how less force you need to hold hand/arm on place than into earliest possible pull and push.

And if you try to test your limits to pain (think you shouldn't) integrating HEC/EVF it first with fist, then one finger, two... might be the healthiest way to explore...

Happy and painless strokes!

Best regards,
Werner

[Tom Pamperin]

Originally Posted by WFEGb

Hello Tom,

Great! seems you found the right trigger to invoid pain. And seems your patiently enough to play with a 0.01s plusminus-tweak on TT while having a look at your GZ. (Some room to your upper SPL?)

Yes, no problem there--some TT work is probably the way to go to build up speed again. I'm tall so my green zone on the chart is 15-19 SPL, so lots of room to play with on SPL. Today I swam mostly 16-17, with a few lengths of 15, and still no new pain or tightness.

Originally Posted by WFEGb

And if you try to test your limits to pain (think you shouldn't) integrating HEC/EVF it first with fist, then one finger, two... might be the healthiest way to explore...

Happy and painless strokes!

Best regards,
Werner

Thanks for your thoughts--as you say, I have no plans at all to try to push through this pain/tightness; I want to learn to avoid it. I have a feeling it was building up for a long long time as I've been doing a vertical forearm all winter and swimming lots of fast (for me) repeats at low-ish SPL.

Today I swam 2000m with no vertical forearm and all awareness directed toward high side arm, including this set: 2 x 10 x 50m on 1:10, with all repeats coming in at :45-48, so not far off my usual speed or volume. I found myself aware of much more momentum with my spearing arm at entry--I had probably been slowing down just before entry before, so I've already learned something new.

It may be that in a couple of weeks I may cautiously try to re-establish a vertical forearm, but with much more awareness of avoiding any tendency to pull hard. Feather-light pressure, that kind of FP.

In fact, I have a feeling I will be learning a lot from needing to avoid stressing my elbow again!

[Zenturtle]

I had classical shoulder pain when raising the arm on dryland, start of pull and start of recovery.
Using my upperbody more to take over some of the movement of the shoulderjoint and shoulderpains are all gone.
(without directly throwing away all high elbow ambitions)

[sclim]

Originally Posted by Tom Pamperin

Yes, no problem there--some TT work is probably the way to go to build up speed again. I'm tall so my green zone on the chart is 15-19 SPL, so lots of room to play with on SPL. Today I swam mostly 16-17, with a few lengths of 15, and still no new pain or tightness.



Thanks for your thoughts--as you say, I have no plans at all to try to push through this pain/tightness; I want to learn to avoid it. I have a feeling it was building up for a long long time as I've been doing a vertical forearm all winter and swimming lots of fast (for me) repeats at low-ish SPL.

Today I swam 2000m with no vertical forearm and all awareness directed toward high side arm, including this set: 2 x 10 x 50m on 1:10, with all repeats coming in at :45-48, so not far off my usual speed or volume. I found myself aware of much more momentum with my spearing arm at entry--I had probably been slowing down just before entry before, so I've already learned something new.

It may be that in a couple of weeks I may cautiously try to re-establish a vertical forearm, but with much more awareness of avoiding any tendency to pull hard. Feather-light pressure, that kind of FP.

In fact, I have a feeling I will be learning a lot from needing to avoid stressing my elbow again!

Have you figured out the mechanism/cause of your slowing down before entry? If so could you explain to us what was happening?

(The exact mechanism of the elbow pain is a bit mysterious -- it doesn't seem like it is likely to be tennis elbow. But that's likely immaterial -- the important thing is that you have linked it to swimming, and likely with an extreme or novel positioning of your forearm during stroke, especially with intensity, and it seems to have subsided with rest and less intense stroke pull.)