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  #1  
Old 11-04-2009
haschu33 haschu33 is offline
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Default Hip drive, rotation and spearing - fast or slow ? -

Usually when I swim full stroke, it is a struggle. I would recover, slowly, recover, recover - and then kick and sort of burst into rotation and spearing. After a lap I need to break and regain breath and so forth. Now I happened to do relaxed laps, and I don't know how that happened or how I did it. It just happened. It feels nice and easy while I am doing it and it feels nice and easy at the end of the lap.
I noticed, when I swim relaxed, the main difference is that I don't do this sudden rotation and spearing. It happens a lot more slowly. It's like I kick and then it takes a little time in which I sort of glide into the rotation and the spearing arm does stretch a lot slower. I don't know about how fast I swim, but it does not feel to be any slower as when I do the 'burst' kind of rotation and spearing. And it does feel very good to do it, very relaxed, but still moving nicely through the water. It is a bit as if I glide into rotation and when it is finished the next rotation already starts. So I spend a lot more time in rotating than in gliding while being fully rotated - although the rotation does feel like gliding, too.

Now my question is: how slow or fast should the rotation and spearing be ? Is there something like the optimal way, does it differ on speed and length to swim, or on individuals, or should it be the same always and with everybody?
How are you doing it, and why? Do you rotate more in a sudden way and then glide, or do you rotate slowly ?

Any feedback welcome...

Last edited by haschu33 : 11-04-2009 at 08:38 PM.
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Old 11-04-2009
terry terry is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haschu33 View Post
how slow or fast should the rotation and spearing be ? Is there something like the optimal way, does it differ on speed and length to swim
The ease you've happily happened upon is a result of your smoothing out your rhythm. The sudden spearing and burst of momentum signal that you'd crossed that line where momentum begins to degrade into inertia. If your speed-between-strokes drops too low, then you need to generate more power to overcome increased resistance for the next burst of momentum.

That sort of "oomph" does feel good, but it comes at a cost to efficiency. More fatiguing and harder to maintain. That's a "discontinuous or interrupted" stroke.

For an easy and graceful flow you progress to a "languid but continuous" stroke, which is where your description suggest you are now.

To progress to a "continuous but faster" stroke the most natural path would be to use the Tempo Trainer and increase the beep frequency by very small increments - often as tiny as .01 second. I'd suggest that a good starting point for most TI swimmers who are still getting a feel for whole stroke is 1.30 sec/stroke.
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Old 11-04-2009
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Default Spearing

One reason I have people try out a more full-body spear from time to time is that they often stop short in the action. They get to a certain point and don't finish off to a nice, elegant and stretched skating position unless they do a full body stretch. For me, that's why I push a full spearing motion even on my sprinters. Our natural tendency is to put an arm in and then shift focus before it's in position to some pulling force, and this shift in focus helps avoid that.
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Old 11-04-2009
daveblt daveblt is offline
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[quote=CoachDave;6837]One reason I have people try out a more full-body spear from time to time is that they often stop short in the action.


I think this may be more apparent on non breathing strokes ? For some when they go to breathe they think more about getting the breath and forget that at the same time they have to roll and keep the body long and moving but instead come to a halt.


Dave

Last edited by daveblt : 11-04-2009 at 11:55 PM.
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Old 11-04-2009
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Default Single spears

Yup- That's why I often have them use any switching drill from a pushoff into one switch that has a breath included. If it's out of position or they're reluctant to take the arm to extension, they notice right away that the position itself is hindering breathing and can go back for another pushoff to correct.
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Old 11-04-2009
daveblt daveblt is offline
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Actually I started out saying non breathing strokes but I meant breathing strokes .Sorry about that.


Dave
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Old 11-05-2009
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Default Breathing strokes

Yes- it's usually more defined in breathing strokes, since there are more things to manage, but it's also oftena reason people increase stroke count over distance. Each stroke stretches a little less.

A lot of people realize that a deeper arm or a press on the skating arm helps balance, but also taking it further forward at that depth also helps balance- it moves the center of gravity closer in line with the center of buoyancy. Most often this happens on breathing strokes- it stretches less and is shallower from old habits, and an observer can notice the dip in speed on breathing strokes and often a movement to compensate for it on the following stroke.
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  #8  
Old 11-05-2009
haschu33 haschu33 is offline
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I declare "oomph" the word of the year...

Quote:
Originally Posted by terry View Post
To progress to a "continuous but faster" stroke the most natural path would be to use the Tempo Trainer and increase the beep frequency by very small increments - often as tiny as .01 second. I'd suggest that a good starting point for most TI swimmers who are still getting a feel for whole stroke is 1.30 sec/stroke.
I got the Tempo Trainer last week, tried to use it, and couldn't figure out how to stroke faster. (I ordered it in Germany although it was slightly more expensive than the one from TI, but sometimes they stop the US shippings at German customs, I have to pay extra tax and wait 4 weeks to get it - global village - what a joke). Tried it again today - great! A completely new world opens up with constant strokes, even integrating the breath is easier because of constant stroke rate. Worked my way down from 1.40 to 1.30 s, now I am focusing on getting this very relaxed. No way to get it faster at the moment. The Tempo trainer is a great help, indeed!

Thanks, Terry, that was the right hint at the right time (again).

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachDave View Post
One reason I have people try out a more full-body spear from time to time is that they often stop short in the action. They get to a certain point and don't finish off to a nice, elegant and stretched skating position unless they do a full body stretch. For me, that's why I push a full spearing motion even on my sprinters. Our natural tendency is to put an arm in and then shift focus before it's in position to some pulling force, and this shift in focus helps avoid that.
I realize that there is an advantage to learn freestyle the TI way from scratch: I always do a full body spear, because that's how I drilled it and I cannot really do anything else. Except on my really bad breathing side on the left where the right spearing arm has a tendency to go down and to the centerline, but it stil remains straight in front. My "oomph" is on spearing the arm and stretching into streamlining, although I start to do the "oomph" without a real "oomph".

Thanks for your help!
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Old 11-05-2009
elk-tamer elk-tamer is offline
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Quote:
I got the Tempo Trainer last week, tried to use it, and couldn't figure out how to stroke faster. (I ordered it in Germany although it was slightly more expensive than the one from TI, but sometimes they stop the US shippings at German customs, I have to pay extra tax and wait 4 weeks to get it - global village - what a joke). Tried it again today - great! A completely new world opens up with constant strokes, even integrating the breath is easier because of constant stroke rate. Worked my way down from 1.40 to 1.30 s, now I am focusing on getting this very relaxed. No way to get it faster at the moment. The Tempo trainer is a great help, indeed!

Thanks, Terry, that was the right hint at the right time (again).
I missed Terry's original post. 1.30 is the starting point? I just got a tempo trainer yesterday, and worked my way down from 1.85 to 1.5. No wonder I'm so damned slow.
Did you maintain your strokes per length with the tempo increase haschu?
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  #10  
Old 11-06-2009
haschu33 haschu33 is offline
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No. I made 20 strokes in a 25 m pool. And I am slow, too. When I go at 1.7 I need less strokes. But it is not a continuous movement then.

I actually came down from 1.7. But I was doing too long glides after the stroke. At 1.5 it was better, and at 1.3 I had the feeling I got slower, because the gliding became a lot shorter, but I need to have a continuous stroke at 1.3, doesn't work otherwise. And that's what I focus on in the moment. The strokes will start to become longer again, and I don't care about speed, that comes anyway. Continuous or perpetual movement and relaxing, that's my focus right now.
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