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  #1  
Old 10-20-2015
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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Default Can coaches struggle?

Hello,

sometimes a look back may be a good thing.

I'm with TI now for some four years. Because of various small diseases the last two years were larded with many pool-timouts, and external measurements show a long time plateau. Always more or less hard work to get back to (it's the "magical" 30min for 1500m SCM. Most Readers might LOL). Still have the goal to carry it to LCM. (Think, we have to care our dreams, even if that of a TI-Workshop together with the silver-surfers from forum is pushed in the background.)

In this time TI never lost it's highly interesting attraction against my boring laps before. And although the plateau seems endless I'm more often satisfied with my pooltimes and sure my stroke has improved from the beginning a lot. (Mat calls it the difference of inner and outer measurement...) And surely even my worst laps today are far better and more TI-like than my best four years ago. And there my question appeared:

Can coaches struggle, or is even a detoriated coach's stroke still an elegant TI-stroke?

Anyone with similar or opposite experience? And how do you deal with yours?

Best regards,
Werner
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  #2  
Old 10-21-2015
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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Seems to me a lot of TI coaches are adult onset swimmers themselfes, so whatever swimtechnique, its almost impossible to achieve the same skill and feel of people who learned and swam a lot more hours as kids.
Also the TI coaches coming from a swim background almost always look best.
Shinji and some others are exceptions, but these are rare.

A pretty good but not top competetive swimmer doing catchup looks something like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejdwtAGXVds (2 min 15)

The avarage Ti coach looks something like this (?):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67y1HC-1Fos

Whos stroke looks better? Also there is a whole continuum between obvious struggle and perfection.

Not a swim type thing, just that its difficult to learn to swim well later in life.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 10-21-2015 at 01:02 PM.
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  #3  
Old 10-21-2015
Danny Danny is offline
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Hi Werner,

As we've discussed before, you and I are similar in age and up against some similar barriers in improving our swimming. Over time, my sprinting capabilities have suffered greatly (in 15 yrs, I have gone from about 35s to about 47 s for 50 yd.) even though my technique has improved considerably. Where technique really shows (I think) is over longer distance. 1500 m SCM in 30 min is still out of reach for me, let alone LCM, but I don't feel I am on a plateau. I have started focussing on 300 yd intervals and my times for these are getting faster, even though I am getting older. Instead of being on a plateau, I have the feeling that I am on a continual process of re-inventing my stroke. Thus the way I am swimming now seems to me to be very different from the way I was swimming last year, even though my times are only about 10s faster over 300 yd.

I can only guess how all of this will end up over the next years, but I suspect that I will continue to find new reasons to re-invent my stroke.

One more question/suggestion: If you have had the same goal (1500 m LCM in 30 min) for a long time and are getting frustrated with it, why not choose a different goal for a while to get a different perspective? Can you improve you 400 m times, if you focus on them?

Good luck!
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  #4  
Old 10-21-2015
CoachEricDeSanto CoachEricDeSanto is offline
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Can Coaches Struggle...YES!

Everyone's body changes as life happens. And everyone's schedule changes as life happens. One of the things I love about masters sports is that is presents the challenge of finding a way to get the most out of the body and life that you have.

I had the incredible opportunity while living in San Francisco to meet and watch Keiko Fukuda before she passed. She was, at 99, the oldest surviving student of the founder of Judo. She often said that she doesn't get to stop defending herself just because she is old. She just has to do it differently. Swimming is the same.

I personally went from training 25-35 hours a week as a triathlete in college to being happy if I can squeeze in 1-2 x 45 min sessions a week with several year long breaks. And nerve damage from a bike crash that ended my racing career inhibits some motions. I have had to learn to focus on one practice at a time. As long as I leave the pool better than I was when I arrived, I am happy.
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Last edited by CoachEricDeSanto : 10-21-2015 at 09:24 PM.
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  #5  
Old 10-21-2015
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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Hello Zenturtle,

your videolinks are overwhelming every time! First link is not a TI demonstration but with fairly many goodies in it. Second seems more a CCC of Coach Starters, but your eagle eye will find some faults (do I remember right, you even found one or two in Shinji's demo?) There it's more my question, what FP should be demonstrated? And for me it's not what I'd call struggle.

Think you're right, in the continuum between a good TI stroke and struggle the borderline is not a rigid one. And what's for me a recognizable fluent TI stroke might be over the threshold to struggle for you.

(It's another problem when I developped a feeling for a good stroke and have to revise it as struggle when looking at the video...)

Best regards,
Werner
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  #6  
Old 10-21-2015
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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Hello Danny,

yes, I'm always a little insecure. Work in technique or push the endurance. (Yes I do know the coaches answers, but...)

Goal for a long time. Yes, I like to have something pointing out a direction. This does not mean I'll go the direct way at once. Looking at the Matterhorn and dreaming how it might feel to stay on top does not mean I start at once, but if I don't take the first step up I can be shure I'll never get higher, not the smallest hill... But going uphill I'll never miss the wonderful tiny flowers at my feet in the meadow...

Think I'm not frustrated (sometimes a little resignated) about my plateau. What sometimes disappoints me is the hard work to get back to my former state when a gap had to happen (live happens, as Mat says). This seems a necessary tribute to age. At least I'm glad my whole stroke changed over time and by the way I found a (very slow) recovery "forever" stroke. Working now to get to a breath every three.

And to my Kaizen a little dissatisfaction with something in my times or stroke is necessary to be satisfied with myself. :-)

Best regards,
Werner
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  #7  
Old 10-21-2015
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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Hello CoachEric,

funny, your post contradicts your first answer (for me at least). All your examples are good as demonstration what struggle is not!

Quote:
As long as I leave the pool better than I was when I arrived, I am happy.
Who wouldn't? And to put a little Tao in: Aren't we even better swimmers over all after a pooltime when we realized, this pootime didn't make me a better swimmer? :-)

Best regards,
Werner
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  #8  
Old 10-22-2015
truwani truwani is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
Seems to me a lot of TI coaches are adult onset swimmers themselfes, so whatever swimtechnique, its almost impossible to achieve the same skill and feel of people who learned and swam a lot more hours as kids.
Also the TI coaches coming from a swim background almost always look best.
Shinji and some others are exceptions, but these are rare.

A pretty good but not top competetive swimmer doing catchup looks something like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejdwtAGXVds (2 min 15)

The avarage Ti coach looks something like this (?):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67y1HC-1Fos

Whos stroke looks better? Also there is a whole continuum between obvious struggle and perfection.

Not a swim type thing, just that its difficult to learn to swim well later in life.
I absolutely adore your first link!

This is exactly the style I would like to swim, but I am not there by a long way.
A lot of rotation too, nevertheless no scissor kick…

Such ease, and if it is a 25meter pool: 11 SPL: AMAZING!!
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  #9  
Old 10-22-2015
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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Hi Truwani,

Do you want to know his secret trick?

Doing this drill every day:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNLaFqPgg6w (2 min 15) ha ,ha.

Is he already struggling? Even this doesnt look to bad I think, although it disappointed me that he didnt do fly at the end.;-)

Last edited by Zenturtle : 10-22-2015 at 03:39 PM.
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  #10  
Old 10-22-2015
Danny Danny is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
Hi Truwani,

Do you want to know his secret trick?

Doing this drill every day:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNLaFqPgg6w (2 min 15) ha ,ha.

Is he already struggling? Even this doesnt look to bad I think, although it disappointed me that he didnt do fly at the end.;-)
ZT, this guy is great!! I do, however, share your disappointment that there was no fly...Maybe we should ask him about it?
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