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  #41  
Old 08-30-2015
CoachEricDeSanto CoachEricDeSanto is offline
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I believe the dips in stroke count and higher tempos occur because your timing gets better. In my experience, these dips are pockets where you keep your stroke count low for a range of a few hundreths of a second in tempo, then the count rises dramatically. If the dip was caused by the speed alone, you would not see a dramatic increase in count a few hundredths faster.

As for Coach Dave, the sub-17 miles were in college where he had a coach that was not TI but held the same Bill Boomer based ideas.

I am also going to hunt for underwater video of Nathan Adrian and Jason Lezak at speed. I have seen video of both of them recommending techniques much like we describe, but the videos were of slower swimming.
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  #42  
Old 08-30-2015
CoachEricDeSanto CoachEricDeSanto is offline
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHbNKX3VkIM

How is this for a short hunt? In this Katie Ledecky video, I see , great head alignment, mailslot entry, a fairly extreme amount of patience (sometimes full front quadrant, sometimes slightly less), at times a 2, 4 and 6 beat kick. From what I have understood about her training, it not very power oriented. It is more about posture and aerobic training.

The videos I found today of Lezak and Adrian only show fleeting glimpses of underwater, but you can see a moment of stillness in the lead arm.
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  #43  
Old 08-30-2015
CoachEricDeSanto CoachEricDeSanto is offline
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DPXoKoLnyM

The video is bad, but this is Peter Vanderkaay's 4:08 for the 500 free (I believe that is still the world record). In a few places the video is clear enough that you can see patience with the lead arm and mail slot entry. He is known for a very long stroke: racing at 11 s/l.


As for the strength needed, I agree it is important. But I am really beginning to believe that harnessing the energy of the recovery until it feels like the spearing arm is towing you down the pool during that moment of stillness is more important. When I get my masters swimmers to do that, every one of them improves and many are not strong.
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  #44  
Old 08-30-2015
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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Yeah, thats really bad quality ha ha .

I think I understand a bit what you mean. When the stroke gets basically sound looking at the movement patterns of arms and legs the relative timing of things starts to become so important.
Fractions of a seconds timing difference can make or breake a stroke.
In the pool, some folks I know are not very strong, but can move so fluid through the water.
Every action on the water follows the other in perfect sequence.
Not a muscle action that is not helping the next almost.
At least we are getting more aware of the timing and our errors the better we get.

Maybe fun to take some examples and see what a TI coach would want to change in the stroke.

Take Park Tae Hwan.
I believe most coaches will agree the guy has pretty good technique.
What would the TI advice be?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivr6I-nDLCc

Last edited by Zenturtle : 08-30-2015 at 08:26 AM.
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  #45  
Old 08-30-2015
descending descending is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachEricDeSanto View Post
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHbNKX3VkIM

How is this for a short hunt? In this Katie Ledecky video, I see , great head alignment, mailslot entry, a fairly extreme amount of patience (sometimes full front quadrant, sometimes slightly less), at times a 2, 4 and 6 beat kick. From what I have understood about her training, it not very power oriented. It is more about posture and aerobic training.

The videos I found today of Lezak and Adrian only show fleeting glimpses of underwater, but you can see a moment of stillness in the lead arm.
Katie and her coach Bruce Gemmell are the premiere advocates for race pace training. She does 50's, 75's and 100's at race pace one after another. One of their favorite test sets is descending 16 x 25 at a ridiculous pace. I certainly recognize her loping, single side breathing, but how patient a lead arm can you have at 85+ spm? I just found this a bit odd you would select her since she and Gemmell are what interested my coach in USRPT years ago and why we train this way. USA Swimming I believe has the full presentation you can view with the Deck Pass membership. Other than a couple of easy low intensity base weeks at the beginning of the season she is blasting race pace in 8-12 week cycles and then taking 3 days rest, repeat. 2-3 days hard core dry land weight training on top of that pool schedule.

While I am not equating myself to this amazing woman this is exactly how I approach my stroke technique. Single side breathing, loping in the mid 70's. At entry the catching arm has moved into the pull under the shoulder:

Here is her left sided recovery and entry with subsequent arm well late into the pull:


And on her right sided recovery and entry, even befor the hand hits the water her catching arm is well into pull under her shoulder:


These are the things I focus on in my stroke as well. Just not seeing what you are seeing I guess so I'm looking forward to your input. Thanks in advance for your input thus far. I will get to see the TI videos and materials my friend is using next weekend and that should help clear up in my mind what the goal is precisely with catch and pull timing. Just figured I'd put this up since I'm extremely familiar with Ledecky and Co's modus operandi.

Last edited by descending : 08-30-2015 at 04:16 PM.
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  #46  
Old 08-30-2015
Danny Danny is offline
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Descending, does the swim style shown in your picture place a lot of strain on the shoulder up front? How do you avoid pushing water down instead of back at the early part of the catch if you start it so early?

Sorry for these naive questions... I can't even reach a stroke rate of 60 per min, but it seems like you need pretty flexible shoulders with good strength in the joint in order to be able to do this. Am I wrong?
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  #47  
Old 08-30-2015
descending descending is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny View Post
Descending, does the swim style shown in your picture place a lot of strain on the shoulder up front? How do you avoid pushing water down instead of back at the early part of the catch if you start it so early?

Sorry for these naive questions... I can't even reach a stroke rate of 60 per min, but it seems like you need pretty flexible shoulders with good strength in the joint in order to be able to do this. Am I wrong?
Well certainly to hit the kinds of positions world class elites do you need amazing flexibility, but it's not typically a soft tissue thing. The humerus sits in a ball and socket joint. Some of the flexibility you need for this is born: either your ball joint sits shallow or deep. I'd say I'm in between. Most anyone can hit the position though it's just conditioning the small muscles for internal rotation. Doesn't take much at all to have a very nice catch, but the more the better. We have people in their 60's and 70's on our squad with reasonable high elbow catch mechanics.

The reason why water isn't pressed down is b/c the catch is not propulsive, it's passive. It's a very soft mating with the water and the power isn't turned on until the forearm/hand get more vertical. There is no pressing down at the front with a high elbow catch if done properly. It's like anything else at first it will feel weird and then it's not weird. Takes time to rewire the brain and body. I want to say 98 or 99 was when I was taught the high elbow catch properly and it took me a month or so b/f it started to feel good.

There is a youtube channel from a swim group called GoSwim and they have a video where it shows how to practice rotating the elbow up on top. I think it's called 'high elbow catch'?

Last edited by descending : 08-30-2015 at 03:07 PM.
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  #48  
Old 08-30-2015
borate borate is offline
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http://totalimmersion.net/blog/the-skatch-drill/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZXX9XHx0mM
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  #49  
Old 08-30-2015
CoachEricDeSanto CoachEricDeSanto is offline
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I chose to add Katie to my examples because I don't see anything in her timing that I would say is anti-TI. When Terry started, we used the term front quadrant swimming. We have now switched to calling it a "moment of stillness with the lead arm". My understanding is that the switch was motivated by people being too rigidly attached to the quadrant. At higher tempos, very few people can or should maintain that much overlap. One of the problems my swimmers find is that they must catch and pull too fast if they try to hold full overlap at high tempos. Starting the catch earlier allows us to slow down the hand speed so we can hold the water better. I believe the only way to know what works is to try things out. Practice both timings and see which allows you to maintain a better stroke count at higher tempos.

Katie does, to my eye, pause for a brief moment before setting the catch. I believe this helps direct the energy from the recovery into forward motion. For her, this is very brief, but it is there. I have not heard Katie or her coach describe her technique to know if this is purposeful or not. And she is not attached to TI directly that I know of. But because she does pause for a moment, I feel that her stroke does match the timing that we teach.

I have heard her coach say that she is not a dominant kicker in practice. She is not a dominant puller in practice. But when she swims full stroke she dominates. To me that says her kick, rotation and pull timing must be a big part of her success. That is what we say is the source of power. So she seems to fit with our philosophy.
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  #50  
Old 08-30-2015
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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Quote:
At higher tempos, very few people can or should maintain that much overlap. One of the problems my swimmers find is that they must catch and pull too fast if they try to hold full overlap at high tempos. Starting the catch earlier allows us to slow down the hand speed so we can hold the water better
pffewww, hammering on this point from the first day I joined this forum.
We do agree!!!! hee hee!

A loping stroke in line with TI?
To me, her total body (loping) rhythm is the foundation of her stroke.

Anyway, @ 6 min 44 a few strokes clear underwaterfootage.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WY-kXgz5LA
Doesnt look extraordinairy patient to me.

When I think of TI swim timing, this triathlete comes to mind first
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5vkQfkhVrc

Alex Meyer and Dan Bullock are also on the list

Dan Bullock
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feUhyCklHL0

Too much glide for my liking in this clip. OK from a TI point of view?

looks good from above though
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbSBUutQ54w

By the way, Peter vanderkaays favorite drill? Catchup.
(according to S Taormina)

Last edited by Zenturtle : 08-30-2015 at 09:51 PM.
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