pulling has two negative effects

[swimust]

coaches, is that correct please:
1) The first negative effect of pulling is the famous one in TI:
Its much better to use body rotation and core power for propulsion. pulling wastes energy and gets you tired.

2) second negative effect that I suggest hasn't been discussed much, so I am asking below:
When you rotate the body just as TI says to do, pulling will create a horizontal vector on the rising side (the stroking side) of the torso. This vector will restrict the body rotation and will limit the rotation to a certain degree. You cant rotate the body much when you pull.
Is that correct?

Thanks

[Rincewind]

What do you mean by Horizontal?

Pool water surface is a horizontal plane, a vector in a plane will only move you parallel to that plane, hopefully forward!!

[CoachSuzanne]

regarding #1

core rotation creates the initiation of a movement for the arm to create it's anchoring shape. this takes energy, so it's not a negative. the negative is that "pull" usually results i early contraction of the lat muscle which decreases propelling surface.

#2 ... i don't understand?

[swimust]

Originally Posted by Rincewind

What do you mean by Horizontal?

Pool water surface is a horizontal plane, a vector in a plane will only move you parallel to that plane, hopefully forward!!

Its simple. When you pull, you create on your shoulder an horizontal force going backwards on a parallel line to the water surface. If you force a passive shoulder then you also force the torso and you stop the torso rotation.
If you try to rotate the body with no pull, then you will rotate more than with a pull.

[swimust]

Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne

regarding #1

core rotation creates the initiation of a movement for the arm to create it's anchoring shape. this takes energy, so it's not a negative. the negative is that "pull" usually results i early contraction of the lat muscle which decreases propelling surface.

#2 ... i don't understand?

first read of your comment and I had no clue what you meant.
second read, and I figured out that you talk about the start of the stroke. I was talking about the second half of the stroke, and I will work on it in the pool ("do not pull"!). I have a "sneaky feeling" about it... its before the "underwater arm snap"... you can guess.

[Rincewind]

Originally Posted by swimust

Its simple. When you pull, you create on your shoulder an horizontal force going backwards on a parallel line to the water surface. If you force a passive shoulder then you also force the torso and you stop the torso rotation.
If you try to rotate the body with no pull, then you will rotate more than with a pull.

The force that I feel in the shoulder is forward and slightly up actually, so if anything I feel like this force helps rotation, by elevating the shoulder.

I don't really feel any other force there...

Are you sure you are not just dropping your elbow too much?

[CoachSuzanne]

Originally Posted by Rincewind

The force that I feel in the shoulder is forward and slightly up actually, so if anything I feel like this force helps rotation, by elevating the shoulder.

I don't really feel any other force there...

Are you sure you are not just dropping your elbow too much?

And making the internal rotation needed for a good catch more biomechanically friendly. This is probabaly the only real "secret" in freestyle swimming. Congrats for finding it.

[swimust]

Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne

And making the internal rotation needed for a good catch more biomechanically friendly. This is probabaly the only real "secret" in freestyle swimming. Congrats for finding it.

My issue was trying to propel by using only body rotation with NO PULL at all.
In the last hour I went back to "sanity", and now I see (again) that TI uses body rotation to create a pull.
But it doesn't help when you recommend "to push" and not "to pull". "confusion time"!
What I understand now is that coaches want to avoid "pulling with no body twist", so they called it a "push". In reality, its a pull aided by body rotation.
Am I correct now for a change?

[Richardsk]

Hi swimust

Traditionally (at least since Johnny Weissmuller and probably before that) the crawl swimming arm stroke was divided into a pull (towards the body) and a push (away from the body) but often people use the word pull for the whole action. TI, as you know, favours the anchor idea, with the body being levered past a stationary arm, or at least an arm that is as stationary as physics and the properties of water permit.

The term 'push' seems quite in accordance with reality to me, as the body rotation is causing the hand and arm to travel backwards with reference to the upper body and head. If you were levering yourself over a wall I think you would say that you were pushing and not pulling.

[Rincewind]

Originally Posted by swimust

My issue was trying to propel by using only body rotation with NO PULL at all.
In the last hour I went back to "sanity", and now I see (again) that TI uses body rotation to create a pull.
But it doesn't help when you recommend "to push" and not "to pull". "confusion time"!
What I understand now is that coaches want to avoid "pulling with no body twist", so they called it a "push". In reality, its a pull aided by body rotation.
Am I correct now for a change?

I am not a coach, but I think what you are referring to is the feeling of anchoring the arm and having your body move over it rather than grabbing the water and pushing it back feeling.

Basically using body rotation and engaging more of the core muscles rather than just the arm muscles. The arms still need to be engaged too though.