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Old 09-27-2012
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Default "we actively discourage them from pulling"

Terry made this point that: "early on we actively discourage them from pulling", in another thread here. I wonder if anyone would elaborate on this as I didn't see it in the video.
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Old 09-27-2012
CoachDavidShen CoachDavidShen is offline
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Originally Posted by Talvi View Post
Terry made this point that: "early on we actively discourage them from pulling", in another thread here. I wonder if anyone would elaborate on this as I didn't see it in the video.
hey can you point us to that thread? would love to see the context for that comment before answering. thanks.
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Old 09-27-2012
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Originally Posted by Talvi View Post
Terry made this point that: "early on we actively discourage them from pulling", in another thread here. I wonder if anyone would elaborate on this as I didn't see it in the video.
Beware, this is non TI. But it's part of my take on this topic, simplified to the extreme:

(I shouldn't be revealing the content of my next DVD... but I just can not wait. That producer is taking forever....)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3nb8NRiHqw

And in case you'd be wondering what sculling drills are, here's an example. It's the basic gesture used in Synchronized swimming roughly:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVAUtm3apic

There again though, I am not sure this is TI approved, though these are very meditative (as they give you plenty plenty of time to meditate), to say the least... which probably makes them quite TI friendly. Anyway, I'm sure TI has other means of improving feel for water. Like I mention in the introduction clip, these (sculling) are the best that *I* know of, which doesn't mean that there isn't something even better that I wouldn't be aware of...

Last edited by CharlesCouturier : 09-27-2012 at 05:37 PM.
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Old 09-27-2012
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier View Post
Beware, this is non TI. But it's part of my take on this topic, simplified to the extreme:

(I shouldn't be revealing the content of my next DVD... but I just can not wait. That producer is taking forever....)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3nb8NRiHqw

And in case you'd be wondering what sculling drills are, here's an example. It's the basic gesture used in Synchronized swimming roughly:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVAUtm3apic

There again though, I am not sure this is TI approved, though these are very meditative (as they give you plenty plenty of time to meditate), to say the least... which probably makes them quite TI friendly. Anyway, I'm sure TI has other means of improving feel for water. Like I mention in the introduction clip, these (sculling) are the best that *I* know of, which doesn't mean that there isn't something even better that I wouldn't be aware of...
Charles, is that you speaking? Handsome devil, you...

Just to illustrate that sculling can be done poorly as well, compare Charle's wonderful video above, to this one, reportedly the same drill for the same purpose...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zC7T5...eature=related

Contrasts:
Charles is relaxed and level, MPI swimmer is heads up hips low
Kicking vs. bouy is not so vital...if the MPI swimmer would put his head down the hips would pup up and the kick could be more freestyle like instead of dog paddle like

Charles has arms extended in the catch position. MPI swimmer isn't doing anything that resembles a portion of the freestyle (nor the breast stroke) stroke.

Charles is finding water on the surface of his hand that will allow him to anchor. MIP swimmer is just pushing water around and pulling water towards his midline...with the wrong muscle activation patterns

Charles will improve his freestyle catch and patience with this drill. MPI swimmer is just learning to find resistance...which is only a part of the equation.

Of course the swimmer model in the MPI video can start with that and then be coached to be more subtle and find smaller cues in the water...but I see no ineed to introduce movements that are so far away from the end goal...why not start with Charle's position...if one is going to do sculling... and refine it from the get go


To answer the OP, when your brain says "pull", your body engages the lats primarily adn the rotator cuffs get overpowered allowing relative external rotation of hte upper arm to occur...the arms tend to end up in a "tug of war" sort of pulling position. PULL...causes the elbows to drop.

Changing the intention to ANCHOR and rotate past engages different muscles.

It's more than semantics...the words you choose actively change the muscles your brain engages.
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Last edited by CoachSuzanne : 09-27-2012 at 06:34 PM.
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  #5  
Old 09-27-2012
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
Charles, is that you speaking? Handsome devil, you...
Yeah yeah, speaking is what I do best at the mo, far better than swimming so it ain't me demonstrating the drill itself, but a young swimmer I help to find his way up to the World Marathon Grand Prix circuit (swimming for cash during summer basically).

He's having a bit of a balance issue though. Believe it or not, when I first started working with him a few months back, he didn't even know what a 2bk was, and say that his first attempt at it did convince me to use a different model for demonstrating it ;-) A shame, when you've swam for elite clubs for 7 years... But it's the reality, at least here in prov of Quebec.

So all in all, his head is still a bit too high in this demo, and he could be more relaxed which could help bringing his legs up to the surface. But hey...

I prefer initiating people to sculling drills using this Pos1 drill (catch position), for the exact same reason you mention: working on two things in the same time, ie finding deeper and more solid catch position along with improving feel for water at that position, which is the beginning of everything after all.

I didn't post my answer to promote sculling drills though, but just because sometimes hearing the same speech but expressed slightly differently can help one to understand.

There is far far more than just feel for water in being able to propel yourself forward, I'm merely scratching the surface with feel for water, you at TI are not just scratching the surface in regards to this.

Still, it is an extremely important mentra for me, as I don't think that achieving fair speed in the water is possible without allowing our body to understand this.
(as always with adults, the mind understands generally faster than the body)

PS - This coach at ms performance institute doesn't know much about sculling, it's a shame to even mention that it's breaststroke related. When he mentions that this drill can be done with fins, I almost spit out my sip of coffee.... Sculling with fins will probably develop your feel for water on the wrong side of the hand, as your forward speed (provided by fins) will certainly go over that the Sculling drill can provide itself. In fact, the most difficult thing with sculling is to explain people that they gain nothing in trying to go faster than the speed this drill can provide (very slow).

Last edited by CharlesCouturier : 09-27-2012 at 07:40 PM.
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  #6  
Old 09-27-2012
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Originally Posted by CoachDavidShen View Post
hey can you point us to that thread? would love to see the context for that comment before answering. thanks.
No probs:
http://www.totalimmersion.net/forum/...?t=3030&page=8

And thanks for all the great replies folks ! :)
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  #7  
Old 09-27-2012
CoachDavidShen CoachDavidShen is offline
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Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
To answer the OP, when your brain says "pull", your body engages the lats primarily adn the rotator cuffs get overpowered allowing relative external rotation of hte upper arm to occur...the arms tend to end up in a "tug of war" sort of pulling position. PULL...causes the elbows to drop.

Changing the intention to ANCHOR and rotate past engages different muscles.

It's more than semantics...the words you choose actively change the muscles your brain engages.
well i think CoachSuzanne puts it best here...;-)
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  #8  
Old 09-28-2012
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Originally Posted by CoachDavidShen View Post
well i think CoachSuzanne puts it best here...;-)
In total agreement.

Has anyone ever mentioned about this little body undulation Shinji does, whilst moving over his anchor point?

It may be one of these effects created by wanting to move over something, as opposed to pulling backward. This is a fascinating action often seen among those swimmers that reached a great level of harmony with the water. I've seen this with Sun, Shinji, Paul Newsome, Coach Suzanne.. In fact the latter, probably by coincidence, does it on the same side Shinji does ;-) (ie, when moving the body over the anchor point provided by the left arm, as if it was a bit more difficult to use body weight on that action? I donno)

Not even sure those who are concerned realize that they're actually doing this.... This is the reward of swimming by feeling, instead of by literature description.

Last edited by CharlesCouturier : 09-28-2012 at 01:11 AM.
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  #9  
Old 09-28-2012
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier View Post
Has anyone ever mentioned about this little body undulation Shinji does, whilst moving over his anchor point?
Every time I think: "Now I understand!", and then go back to watch the Shinji vid, I can't help but laugh. It's the swimming equivalent of Hendrix!

Are you seeing the undulation in his longitudinal axis (head to foot)? What I saw when I looked again was a sort of "reaching-leap" as he "stretched" to get to the furthest point (a movement very distinct to the windmilling slapping action of those triathletes you posted!) It's always seemed to me that this is the point at which his "drive" in the stroke is produced. It looks like the action of ice/ski/rollerblade skating.

Is there also a corkscrew in his hip-shoulder plane, or are his hips and shoulders moving as one? My suspicion is that there is a slight (30') partial corkscrewing movement there as a function of the "reaching-leap".

ps
I realised only the other day that hips and shoulders are supposed to move more together! My own first tendency was and still is simply to twist at the waist to roll my torso. Swimming in a wet suit and trying to correct this tends to send me spiralling onto my back!! :D I have enjoyed in "lazier moments" though finding myself swimming at a sort of 45' slant to the water. That position also seems to give my legs something to kick at/in/through/back rather than for them simply to be flapping about and churning up the surface water. It encourages me either to do something akin to a 2bk, or else not to bother with kicking at all!
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