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  #51  
Old 06-02-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
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Maybe its the pressure wave running under the body from front to back?
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  #52  
Old 06-02-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
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Yes thats it, starting a pressure wave by balancing on the palm / elbow to extention which rolls under the body generating lift in a slight dolphin motion running all the way to the feet?

Next arm starts it again
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  #53  
Old 06-03-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
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So now i understand about the outrigger focal point and how stacked will sink the body
its all about displacement of the water beneath the body and harnessing the rebound energy.

So with that in mind fqs 3/4 catch up, kayak, or windmill timimg should be able to be switched between at will depending on the speed desired.
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  #54  
Old 06-04-2018
Tom Pamperin Tom Pamperin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mushroomfloat View Post
fqs 3/4 catch up, kayak, or windmill timimg should be able to be switched between at will depending on the speed desired.
Well, I would say "depending on the stroke rate desired." But stroke rate is only one variable of speed, the other being distance per stroke.

In other words, you can swim faster by increasing your stroke rate but keeping the same distance per stroke. Or you can swim faster while using the same stroke rate by increasing distance per stroke.

But simply speeding up the stroke rate does not guarantee increased speed.

I need to get back in a pool and see what effect my stroke/kick timing has on speed and SPL. Today (open water) I was trying to avoid starting the low arm pressing motion until the spearing arm was wrist-deep. And I gave a lot of attention to making sure the pressing arm was passing the shoulder before kicking, and also making sure the initial part of the press was slow and steady with no bubbles. And also a lot of attention to making sure I did not allow the body to rotate before the kick.

In open water with no ability to measure SPL and distance and time, I'm not sure when it's better to let the underwater arm drift down into the catch early, or when it's better to keep it patient and unmoving until the spearing arm enters.
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  #55  
Old 06-04-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Pamperin View Post
Well, I would say "depending on the stroke rate desired." But stroke rate is only one variable of speed, the other being distance per stroke.

In other words, you can swim faster by increasing your stroke rate but keeping the same distance per stroke. Or you can swim faster while using the same stroke rate by increasing distance per stroke.

But simply speeding up the stroke rate does not guarantee increased speed.

I need to get back in a pool and see what effect my stroke/kick timing has on speed and SPL. Today (open water) I was trying to avoid starting the low arm pressing motion until the spearing arm was wrist-deep. And I gave a lot of attention to making sure the pressing arm was passing the shoulder before kicking, and also making sure the initial part of the press was slow and steady with no bubbles. And also a lot of attention to making sure I did not allow the body to rotate before the kick.

In open water with no ability to measure SPL and distance and time, I'm not sure when it's better to let the underwater arm drift down into the catch early, or when it's better to keep it patient and unmoving until the spearing arm enters.
I know what you mean i tried both last week, patient and letting it drop
re letting it drop i turned the arms over from the torso with straight arm recovery and let the lead arm drop outstretched from entry to about 7pm in a pinkie down orientation utilising the weight from the recovery arm coming over, at shoulder level i kayak timed the catch and rotation as one, in a kind of windmill corkscrew spiral action, i just stayed totally relaxed like a zombie and it worked really well i got a good rythmn cycle going, like corkscrewing along, i used the bill boomer restart drill as whole stroke basically with about 60 deg rotation
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  #56  
Old 06-04-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
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re dps v turnover i see it as "big gear on a bike" (like kpn says) yes there is power there but at greater energy cost

so like running it can be better to increase cadence to increase speed than start increasing stride length
inc length will zap energy faster than inc cadence
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  #57  
Old 06-04-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mushroomfloat View Post
I know what you mean i tried both last week, patient and letting it drop
re letting it drop i turned the arms over from the torso with straight arm recovery and let the lead arm drop outstretched from entry to about 7pm in a pinkie down orientation utilising the weight from the recovery arm coming over, at shoulder level i kayak timed the catch and rotation as one, in a kind of windmill corkscrew spiral action, i just stayed totally relaxed like a zombie and it worked really well i got a good rythmn cycle going, like corkscrewing along, i used the bill boomer restart drill as whole stroke basically with about 60 deg rotation
Beinga blento switch between both is probably a good bet as can let the water/displacement do a bit of the work when get tired ?
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  #58  
Old 06-04-2018
Tom Pamperin Tom Pamperin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mushroomfloat View Post
re dps v turnover i see it as "big gear on a bike" (like kpn says) yes there is power there but at greater energy cost

so like running it can be better to increase cadence to increase speed than start increasing stride length
inc length will zap energy faster than inc cadence
I know what you mean about using a high cadence or low gear in running or biking, but I think the opposite may well be true with swimming.

Done correctly, the longer distance per stroke does not come from putting more muscle power into the stroke. It comes from maintaining better balance and precise body positions, and actively streamlining--which may well actually decrease your perceived effort even as your stroke gets longer.

I think there is an intense mental effort in keeping strokes long at speed, but not so much a physical exertion. I generally get better speeds and less exertion when I focus on making my strokes longer, rather than faster.

I do agree there are many variables to work with, and that there is an optimal stroke length and rate for every distance/speed combination. So no one right way to swim--are you sprinting 100m? Racing 500m? Swimming 2 miles open water? Going slow to concentrate on learning a new feeling? All of these call for very different combinations of stroke rate and distance per stroke.
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Last edited by Tom Pamperin : 06-04-2018 at 09:14 AM.
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  #59  
Old 06-08-2018
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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Hello Tom,

some steps back, but found the video with Shinji and his son. Is your (not any more) new timing what Shinji's son shows just before his emphasized spear? He's swimming fairly fast aside to his father, wile his faster spear and synchronized faster catch-press allows him to swim same pace and(!) SR... While Shinji can hold it with his smoother stroke?

Best regards,
Werner

Last edited by WFEGb : 06-08-2018 at 10:02 AM.
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  #60  
Old 06-09-2018
Tom Pamperin Tom Pamperin is offline
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Werner,

I watched the Shinji and sons video, but I don't see much difference between the timing between them. Can you explain what you are seeing that is different?

Lately I have been focusing on not letting my front arm drift down to the catch until the wrist of the spearing arm is in the water. I have also been focusing on delaying the kick until the pressing arm passes the shoulder. It is a longer delay than I had thought, but propulsion seems very effective when I do this. I think I am swimming faster, with a longer stroke.

I also notice that everything works better when I swim faster, with more effort. It is hard to get really efficient propulsion if you are too slow and relaxed.
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