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  #11  
Old 05-14-2017
Danny Danny is offline
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Hi Tom, you are perhaps right that Stuart's rule to exit with your palm up is enough to get the point across, although I must admit that it wasn't quite enough for me, perhaps because I am a slow learner. In the end, any rule that works should be embraced, and sometimes different things work for different folks. Right now I try to keep those shoulders rotated internally the whole time, not just when I come out of the water in the back. Doing this keeps me from dropping my elbow on the down side in my stroke and doing it during the recovery keeps my elbow up. So, for me, it seems like it should be happening all the time.

There is another point that perhaps is more important for me, but may not be for others. It helps me to know why a rule works in order to remember it, and I also enjoy trying to get this deeper understanding. For me, the understanding that when you rotate your elbow internally bending your elbow can no longer move your hands forward and backward but only sideways is a surprising discovery. It helps me to understand why the internally rotated shoulder helps me to swim more with my shoulders and less with my hands. By doing this, I am anatomically blocking off the options to swim badly, or so it seems to me. :o)
What I meant to say is that "when you rotate your shoulder internally bending your elbow can no longer..."
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  #12  
Old 05-14-2017
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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I think the arms dangle more loose with your free internally rotated shoulder at the top because you give the arm an extra degree of freedom:rotation around its axis.
if you hold the palm facing the hip you limit the movement of the arm to movement more in a plane.
I dont think the differnce is that great, and I dont see the link to swimming, but if it helps you, do what you want.

I think the elbow behind the back/wrong start of recovery often is started way before that point. Its a follow up from the wrong pulling path, often with an arm shape that formes a dropped elbow. The fast slipping arm, leading with the elbow, moves out of the water and shoots behind the back. Also because the stroke is finished to early at the belly botton.

Anyway. It amazes me that the arm movement is discussed in great detail by all the coaches, but what happens between legs and arms is only devided in hip driven or shoulder driven.
How that differnce exactly works is totally unclear. Cant find a proper clear description anywhere.
I see people swimming in a lot of different ways. Doesnt always have to be right or wrong. Its just different.
All those people have their own personal type of dance in the water.

Compare the very rough description of swim coaches about hip or shoulder driven strokes with the very clear description this lady gives about the different moves she makes and at what level she can demonstrate the different types of movements.
Who said swimming was difficult?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_Ya5O7WR2g

KPN is against a difference between shoulder roll and hip roll angle.
Is she right or wrong? Judging by her results, she must be right.
But the same can be said for other swimmers that swim differently.
In my view, swimmers with more shoulder than hip roll usually appear smoother than the total body flipping swimmers. I guess its because the shoulder roll is a continuous movement, directly connected with the long force
phases of of the arms, where the total body roll/flip is connected to the punchy force peaks of the kicks. By not rigedly connecting the shoulders to the hips the punchy peaks of the kicks are smoothed out, and some torso power and control is added to them on the way up to the shoulders to make for a more fluid and controlled total package.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 05-14-2017 at 06:53 AM.
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  #13  
Old 05-14-2017
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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He goes against swimming wisdom thats he is pressing water down at extension and lifting the head more than needed.
An awfull lot of elite swimmers swim this way when swmming a relaxed pace.
Why?
I dont know for sure, but I think it has to do with preloading the extended arm with some body weight and body/shouldertone. Having some pressure under the arm that gives feedback to manipulate the pressure toward the catch point where more force is applied at the right positions. Compared to the pressure he is used to dong a butterfly sprint, this pressure level is hardly noticeble and doesnt spoil his balance and streamline.
Or its just to support the weight of the head a bit extra to make breathing comfortable?
If anybody has the answer, please let me know.


Last edited by Zenturtle : 05-14-2017 at 09:46 AM.
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  #14  
Old 05-14-2017
Danny Danny is offline
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Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
I think the arms dangle more loose with your free internally rotated shoulder at the top because you give the arm an extra degree of freedom:rotation around its axis.
if you hold the palm facing the hip you limit the movement of the arm to movement more in a plane.
I dont think the differnce is that great, and I dont see the link to swimming, but if it helps you, do what you want.
If you relax your shoulders while standing, so that the hands point toward your legs, when you bend your elbow your hands swing forwards and up. This is the natural position for your shoulders. When we walk, we like to swing our hands back and forth as a counterbalance to the body rotation. This can be done in part by swinging the arm at the shoulder and in part by bending the elbow. In contrast, when you rotate your shoulder internally and bend your elbows, you get chicken wings, but your hands do not move forward. Thus, if you want to swing your hands backwards and forwards while holding your shoulders rotated in this position, the entire motion must come from your shoulders because your elbows bend in the wrong direction.

The same basic principles hold in swimming. With your shoulders rotated, you cannot drop your elbow because the elbow bends in the wrong direction. Thus to move your hand backwards for propulsion you are forced to initiate the motion from your shoulder, which is the more efficient way to swim.
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  #15  
Old 05-14-2017
Danny Danny is offline
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Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
Anyway. It amazes me that the arm movement is discussed in great detail by all the coaches, but what happens between legs and arms is only devided in hip driven or shoulder driven.
How that differnce exactly works is totally unclear. Cant find a proper clear description anywhere.
I see people swimming in a lot of different ways. Doesnt always have to be right or wrong. Its just different.
All those people have their own personal type of dance in the water.
If you want to see a detailed description of how torso movement powers running, see the following great book
https://www.amazon.com/Running-Whole.../dp/1556432267

I think swimming could really benefit from a similar treatment.
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  #16  
Old 05-14-2017
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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Quote:
If you relax your shoulders while standing, so that the hands point toward your legs, when you bend your elbow your hands swing forwards and up. This is the natural position for your shoulders. When we walk, we like to swing our hands back and forth as a counterbalance to the body rotation. This can be done in part by swinging the arm at the shoulder and in part by bending the elbow. In contrast, when you rotate your shoulder internally and bend your elbows, you get chicken wings, but your hands do not move forward. Thus, if you want to swing your hands backwards and forwards while holding your shoulders rotated in this position, the entire motion must come from your shoulders because your elbows bend in the wrong direction.

The same basic principles hold in swimming. With your shoulders rotated, you cannot drop your elbow because the elbow bends in the wrong direction. Thus to move your hand backwards for propulsion you are forced to initiate the motion from your shoulder, which is the more efficient way to swim.
Tried it and see your point.
So in the end we need a lot of internally rotated shoulder arm rotation during the stroke.
After extension, at catch, begin of pull and a bit at exit. It helps when the whole shoulders helps with the arm movement.(havent had any shoulder problems anymore since working and reaching more with the shouldergirdle)
I wondered why a swimmers posture is often with rounded shoulders.
When rotating the shoulder internally you also round the shoulders for some reason without thinking about it (also look at the boxer).
Keeping the shoulders straight is better for posture etc. Dont know how it all works to keep the shoulders happy.
As long as you dont apply much force early in the stroke the risk for problems isnt so high I guess. It also takes time to adapt to it.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 05-14-2017 at 03:48 PM.
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  #17  
Old 05-14-2017
Danny Danny is offline
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Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
Tried it and see your point.
So in the end we need a lot of internally rotated shoulder arm rotation during the stroke.
After extension, at catch, begin of pull and a bit at exit. It helps when the whole shoulders helps with the arm movement.(havent had any shoulder problems anymore since working and reaching more with the shouldergirdle)
I wondered why a swimmers posture is often with rounded shoulders.
When rotating the shoulder internally you also round the shoulders for some reason without thinking about it (also look at the boxer).
Keeping the shoulders straight is better for posture etc. Dont know how it all works to keep the shoulders happy.
As long as you dont apply much force early in the stroke the risk for problems isnt so high I guess. It also takes time to adapt to it.
I have been through physical therapy for my bad shoulder and the one exercise I try to do regularly is called the I's, Y's, T's, and W's. You can google it. In any event, I too have rounded shoulders and the muscles around the shoulder blade need to be trained to hold that shoulder back. In particular, I find this is important for the forward extended arm to keep that shoulder back, which you can do even if the shoulder is internally rotated. In fact, I find that keeping the shoulder of my extended arm back helps to keep my weight forward and my legs up. In short, no need to have rounded shoulders just because of internal rotation of the shoulder joint.

I might add that I was having shoulder problems with butterfly recovery and I found that by keeping my shoulders back during the recovery the problem went away. At least for me :o)
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  #18  
Old 05-20-2017
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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Danny, famous anklebandswimmer Cottmiler came up with this article on the other forum, that supports my latest obsessive focus on seperate shoulder rotation.
SS and TI advocate rolling like a solid log. Doesnt work well for me, and some others have a different opinion too.
http://lavamagazine.com/ask-the-man-...ning-your-swim

Last edited by Zenturtle : 05-20-2017 at 09:24 PM.
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  #19  
Old 05-21-2017
Danny Danny is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
Danny, famous anklebandswimmer Cottmiler came up with this article on the other forum, that supports my latest obsessive focus on seperate shoulder rotation.
SS and TI advocate rolling like a solid log. Doesnt work well for me, and some others have a different opinion too.
http://lavamagazine.com/ask-the-man-...ning-your-swim
ZT, your article makes sense to me. I do battle with these issues all the time, and I think the appropriate style has to be adjusted to your body limitations. In particular, I can rotate like a log if my stroke rate is slow enough to give me time to swim catch-up, but at faster stroke rates I try to keep my hips flatter in rotation than my shoulders. For me, this makes the process of reversing the rotation to stroke on the other side much easier. I think that the main problem for me is my shoulder flexibility. In order to get a good catch, my catching shoulder already has to be rotated into an up position, which means I need a lot of shoulder rotation. If my hips were to rotate with my shoulders, than I would be over-rotating and it would take too much time to reverse directions with my hips.

Your shoulders are probably much more flexible than mine, and you may not have this type of limitation. Do you find that rotating like a log works at slower stroke rates for you too, or do you like to twist your body at all stroke rates?
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  #20  
Old 05-21-2017
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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Yeah I allso roll more like a log at slow strokerates, but still exagerate the shoulder roll to get an idea of the action.
Just like when learning a 2BK, exagerating the amplitude gives more feedback how the leg action influences the rest of the stroke.
At low strokerates the hips rotate more. The leg anchors and transmits rotational torque and lift upwards to the front. The kick is a fairly pulsating force relative to the time the total cycle takes. Actually is the kick much better suited to higher strokerates if you consider the time it has available to help in the total cycle.
Once the relative heavy hip gains rotational speed its natural action is to keep rotating like any mass that has acquired speed.
At low stroke rates that leads to a slight hip overshoot if you just let it go.
At faster rates you have to tighten the core more to keep this overshoot under control and reverse fast enough to keep everything connected .



Most swimmers show this change in style depending on strokerate.
Again, Pieter van den Hoogenband at diffeent strokerates.
At low strokerates he rolls his hips much more, rolling like a log. At his highest strokerates his shoulders rotate much more than his hips.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzlmEkw5vM0

Last edited by Zenturtle : 05-21-2017 at 06:48 AM.
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