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  #1  
Old 06-01-2015
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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Default Individual 2BK timing

We talk a lot about the 2BK timing.
The rough timing is clear, but there are differnces in timing between swimmers.
No right or wrong, just personal preferences.
So a tip from one person doenst have to be exactly right for your optimal kick timing.

A late 2BK timing example.
Coach Mandy doesnt kick when the arm enters the water, but when the arm is completely extended and the pulling arm is at the end of the push
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FiPpiC0629I
This timing resembles the timing of the normal 6BK the most with 4 kicks left out and only using the 2 main kicks.

An early 2BK example.
TJ fry has a good stroke, but his kicktiming is much earlier than coach Mandys.
He is really kicking down when the opposite hand just enters the water, and his pulling arm is halfway its stroke.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAkz...ature=youtu.be
Sun Yang seems to have an even earlier 2BK main kick.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CAyiBXmoMI


This is TJ fry s opinion about the 2BK timing:

Something I'd like to add is that all 2 beat kicks are not the same. It all depends on timing. The kick that you see me doing - I'm kicking with the same leg as I'm pulling. So to some degree the kick (or hips) are helping to drive the rotation. So you tend to get bigger rotation and a slower turnover as it lends itself to more of a power stroke. Now, it you place the start of the kick as the opposite hand enters the water, you are canceling out some of that rotation, which helps with a faster turnover and less powerful stroke. (Shoulder driven) It also tends to be a little flatter. When I say less powerful I don't mean slower. Just different gearing so to speak. I will use both types depending on the situation. Smooth water or the middle of an Ironman swim I will use the stroke in the video. When it's time for quick decisions and changes, I go to the other.
I don't mean to further muddy the waters with all this kicking talk, but even once you learn the 2 beat, you still might not be doing the 2 beat that favors your particular stroke.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 06-01-2015 at 09:06 PM.
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Old 06-01-2015
Tom Pamperin Tom Pamperin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
Coach Mandy doesnt kick when the arm enters the water, but when the arm is completely extended and the pulling arm is at the end of the push
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FiPpiC0629I
This timing resembles the timing of the normal 6BK the most with 4 kicks left out and only using the 2 main kicks.
Really? When I swim with a 6-beat kick (rare these days), I kick just as the opposite hand enters the water. Is that unusual? I thought that was the standard timing.

Actually, I've been noticing more and more people with backward kick timing, kicking down with the right foot as the right hand enters the water. And lots of people who don't seem aware of a rhythm as they kick at all--they just "flutter" without synchronizing to the arm stroke. Weird.
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Old 06-01-2015
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Pamperin View Post
Really? When I swim with a 6-beat kick (rare these days), I kick just as the opposite hand enters the water. Is that unusual? I thought that was the standard timing.

Actually, I've been noticing more and more people with backward kick timing, kicking down with the right foot as the right hand enters the water. And lots of people who don't seem aware of a rhythm as they kick at all--they just "flutter" without synchronizing to the arm stroke. Weird.
Weird, well yes and no. For some people (read a lot of people), synchronizing 3 kicks per half cycle, i.e. 6 per cycle is easier said than done. It doesn't come naturally. I believe it's tied to the potential for inner rhythm. Some may have everything else (flexibility, propriception and feel for water) but may lack on the rhythm side. That explains why we often come across very good swimmers (sub 30sec for 50, sub 60sec for 100m) who don't own this timing yet. Likewise, you have beginners who are poor on flexibility, proprioception and feel for water sides who seem to get the 6b proper timing instantaneously. It is this fact which inspired my the dryland swim waltz (you may youtube it if you never heard of it).

The 2 major kicks of a 6bk are generally in synch with what the 2b would be for that perticular swimmer. No diff. It can, as ZT mentions, be timed a bit earlier, a bit later relative to the body roll, but never completely "reversed". The main draw back in getting the timing so wrong (reversed) is that it's hard if not impossible to get straight body alignment (finger tip to toes). See img below, showing such an alignment. In this case, it is from tips of the right hand fingers to toes of the left foot that just kicked.

Pulling same arm as you kick = kicking opposite arm that just entered, especially at race pace stroke rate (where the difference between timing it early and late becomes very narrow). Again, to reuse our image below, notice that this left leg that just kicked did so whilst left hand was pulling. Same side pulling = opposite side entering. Within this principle, the variations is fine tuned timing (i.e. kicking earlier, spot on, or late relative to body roll).


Last edited by CharlesCouturier : 06-01-2015 at 09:59 PM.
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  #4  
Old 06-02-2015
lloyddinma lloyddinma is offline
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Zenturtle
Individual 2BK timing
We talk a lot about the 2BK timing.
The rough timing is clear, but there are differnces in timing between swimmers.
No right or wrong, just personal preferences.
So a tip from one person doenst have to be exactly right for your optimal kick timing.

I am a little lost with TJ's comment. But it does to me that the difference in the two clips is that he is not spearing as deep as Mandy , making it harder to see.

What is so interesting, is that my 2bk was as you put it "early". In fact I commented on one of the recent threads on how I had just started drills to make it late. Prior to that, I had read coach David confirm somewhere it had to be mid-forearmish.

Isn't the best metaphor to use, a array of cards or dominoes? Push one and they all start to fall. I get the sense that with an early entry you are not really harnessing the momentum. In other words, the cards have not been lined up.
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Old 06-02-2015
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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Lloyddinma,
It seems logical that the kicks effect on rotation is less if you kick when the rotation has nearly finished.
TJ fry thinks his kick drives his rotation more when his kick is relatively early.

Charles,
If we have 2 identical swimmers, like 2 twins with the same fitness level.
One has that perfect rhythm, moving through the water like a fluid well oiled machine, the other is doing allright basically, but is a little jerky and robotic.
Say Michael Jacksons moonwalk against a reasonable white imitator.
How much extra speed is this perfect rhythm worth?

Anybody,
Who times his kick with his spear , and who times his kick with his pull/push?
I am a late kicker, finishing off the roll with the kick, and timingfocus on the same side pull/push. Should try focussing timing with the opposite side spear perhaps.
At higher strokerates timing is a bit earlier I think. Not sure about ir.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 06-02-2015 at 04:03 PM.
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Old 06-02-2015
Tom Pamperin Tom Pamperin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
Anybody,
Who times his kick with his spear , and who times his kick with his pull/push?
I time my kick to my spear--kick comes JUST after the fingertips of the opposite hand enter the water, like the kick is a grace note to the main note of the spear.

It'd be interesting to see what it feels like to time my kick to the same arm pull instead. I'll play around with that soon-ish. In fact, maybe I'll play around each day for a few lengths trying out different kick timings. I think mine is working well now, but maybe there's a better one out there waiting for me to find.
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Old 06-02-2015
lloyddinma lloyddinma is offline
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Lloyddinma,
It seems logical that the kicks effect on rotation is less if you kick when the rotation has nearly finished.
TJ fry thinks his kick drives his rotation more when his kick is relatively early.

Zen, I am not so sure late necessarily means kicking after rotation. It could mean kicking at the beginning of rotation, but already spearing to mid-forearm length.
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Old 06-02-2015
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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I see the same side kick as a mirror of the pull, but that could be because I am rather arm ficused.
Try the spear connection some time, but now experimenting with high elbow shoulder and upperarmlift before arm entry and see what the weight does.
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Old 06-02-2015
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Pamperin View Post
I time my kick to my spear--kick comes JUST after the fingertips of the opposite hand enter the water, like the kick is a grace note to the main note of the spear.

It'd be interesting to see what it feels like to time my kick to the same arm pull instead. I'll play around with that soon-ish. In fact, maybe I'll play around each day for a few lengths trying out different kick timings. I think mine is working well now, but maybe there's a better one out there waiting for me to find.
Hey Tom,

If you slice in recovery arm elbow deep *before* firing the kick, this winds up the lats even more so such that the hips fire naturally, easily kicking from the glutes (rump) and not the quads (knees). A kick too early, loses that core connection and more often than not, early kick triggers too much knee bend from the quads (not the glutes) taking over.

Stuart
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Old 06-03-2015
lloyddinma lloyddinma is offline
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If you slice in recovery arm elbow deep *before* firing the kick, this winds up the lats even more so such that the hips fire naturally, easily kicking from the glutes (rump) an

Coach Stuart,

you are truly the bearer of bad news tonight. I am just off drills learning to kick to mid-forearm. Now, I have to go back to the drawing board. Elbow deep??
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