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  #41  
Old 01-27-2015
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny View Post
... For me, the biggest accomodation was to start consciously spearing deeper. It led to all sorts of good changes and I'm actually swimming faster than I was before. Just wanted to get that out there.
I think this links well to what Danm has described, and it's something I've been finding, more by way of not pushing down than anything else though. Your comment encourages me to pursue it. Also my video shows that I am if anything spearing way too high so there's a long way to go even get to my idol's spearing depth!

We won't be 10 again true, but I think that "raging against the dying of the light" is not a bad thing, in moderation. The envelope is definitely contracting but don't we each need to figure how much by carefully testing and pushing at it?

Anyway, there is the third approach: of working to maintain strength and even improve it as far as possible. But I'd agree that flexibility alone is dangerous, especially as we age.
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A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
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  #42  
Old 01-27-2015
Danny Danny is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talvi View Post
"raging against the dying of the light" is not a bad thing, in moderation.
I think this is worth printing on a poster and hanging on my wall.
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  #43  
Old 01-27-2015
borate borate is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny View Post
I think this is worth printing on a poster and hanging on my wall.
ALL things in moderation, including moderation...and stroke analysis. ^_^
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  #44  
Old 01-27-2015
sclim sclim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny View Post
I think this is worth printing on a poster and hanging on my wall.
Quote:
Originally Posted by borate View Post
ALL things in moderation, including moderation...and stroke analysis. ^_^
as long as we are quoting existential philosophy and self betterment through reflection...

Lord
Give me the Strength to Change what is mine to change
The Serenity to accept what is not mine to change
And the Wisdom to bury the bodies of the people I had to shoot because they pissed me off.

:-)
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  #45  
Old 01-27-2015
danm danm is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talvi View Post
Hiya Danm

Where do you feel this barrel? And at what points in the stroke do you feel it most?

Despite appearances (!) I often focus on draping my arm at the end of the spear. That is actually probably beyond my skill point at this time and not that helpful maybe.
https://www.google.ro/search?q=reach...an+open+barrel
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  #46  
Old 01-28-2015
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Em I allowed to a few feedback on your clips?

First, thumbs up for the care put in producing this sequence. It could hardly get any better. Lots of interesting underwater views. Awesome.

Something you may want to consider in the future is assessing how wide your 2bk is. There's a possibility although I may be wrong, that you may be opening a bit too wide. Best shot is from behind, underwater view, relatively shallow shot.

I think you do in fact, which in the same time explains the reversed banana shape. It is very very hard to keep 2bk narrow just on feeling. This requires some video feedback (or other form of feedback, like a pal for instance, though you often need a video still frame to assess the magnitude of the issue).



So normally, this creates drag, at a stage where you have no propulsive forces (it occurs during the recovery prior the next leg wip). A tid bit before, by correcting the drop elbow with a nice high elbow catch, this sees your hand pressing water downward, which has a negative impact on balance, which may explain the need for wider leg recovery in order to kick more vigorously.

We clearly see that you understand swimming very well. All pieces are there, roughly well timed, opposite downbeat of the kick well timed, embryo of a nice catch, relatively well controlled body roll, nice breathing (very nice in fact), well timed 2bk. But overall, I think it'd be good to ensure perfect body line at any point in the cycle, including during the leg recovery, especially the one which takes place whilst you breathe. Body must stay straighter. As Shinji explained, and I found that "very very" refreshing to read, without subdue tensions though. Use the least tension required to keep straight. In a pool, at low to moderate speed, one can remain very very relaxed, not much muscular effort required. It's open water when conditions get rougher or, when sprinting that one needs to tighten up the core.

Body position is sufficiently good for my taste. I like to see the bum at the surface. At that pace it's hard to keep the legs at the surface, but at least when you have the bum not creating drag it's not so bad. Once you eliminate the drag created by your body distorting, and legs opening too wide, and that you have a better arm posture (no dropped elbow etc), in order to move closer to 1:45/1:50 of critical pace, you'll need to improve transition from spear to catch to pull + higher elbow.

Because the problem that I can see, is that when your hand all of a sudden performs a very drastic accleration, your arm (forearm mostly) isn't yet positioned in a way to avoid slipperage. Your elbow moves first, backward, which explains why your arm will never reach a good position for avoiding such a drastic acceleration to slip. You do slip a lot.

--------

2nd portion is, I believe, not entirely TI approved. Arrrgggrr how to explain this. Of course, the more you wait, the more patient you are, when all of a sudden the body performs the switch/weight transfer, if you're not ready at the front well you end up late. Late on catch, late on pull through. You can never really manage to propel yourself over, as you remain behind and elbow pulls first and you can't reach your optimal efficiency. So just be careful with this. If you look at Shinji or any good TI swimmer/coach, you'll notice that the hand never really stops. It sinks slowly but surly during skate and just like a tiger collapsing on its prey, it accelerate more slowly first than once you have your grip, you can move over, or roll over, or swim over.

Good news is that you have an ideal cross sectional area it seems, you're thin and could get very streamlined. That + your understanding and passion, it's all promising. Keep up the good work!

Last edited by CharlesCouturier : 01-28-2015 at 02:10 AM.
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  #47  
Old 01-28-2015
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Default Dear Charles

Charles, is the pope Catholic!?! :D Wonderful post, thanks!

Would you expand on these observations you made:

1. Width of 2bk
In my sesssions ATV (after the video!) I've been focusing on keeping my thighs touching. Good idea? The only other thing I have been able to think of is tying my ankles together. In my last session, I found myself doing a sort of butterfly kick, both legs together. This seems to be a reflex to get/keep my legs up (see 3. below).

2. "A tid before, correcting the drop elbow with a nice high elbow catch"
Are you saying that initially my elbow drops but in correcting this I press down on the water? I've been thinking I need to correct my hand entry point/hand entry/spear generally i.e straighten it out and get it underwater faster. I thought of this to get rid of that splash/push down. At present my hand enters then scoots in to the centre to form the spear, then out again into catch! Maybe correcting all this will address the reverse banana. Any thoughts?

3. Kick
I'd REALLY like your steer on this one. My interpretation of the video (and new understanding of why I kick the lane ropes!) has been that I kick more out sideways than down and that correcting this would get me flatter more easily. What do you think?

4. Transition
IMO this is the big one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier View Post
... the problem that I can see, is that when your hand all of a sudden performs a very drastic accleration, your arm (forearm mostly) isn't yet positioned in a way to avoid slipperage. Your elbow moves first, backward, which explains why your arm will never reach a good position for avoiding such a drastic acceleration to slip. You do slip a lot....
Yaaaay!! :) :) That's what I'm talking about!! Fantastic you get it!! But in the other thread you wrote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier View Post
... What you identify as being a probable problem may actually be a nice feature, i.e. passing the elbow correctly to transition from pull to push ...
but it's not is it? It's an awful slip that for 18 months I've been trying to figure out - with fist swimming, catch focus, snorkelling, pull buoys, one arm drills, etc, and amost zero progress :(

So I think this is your answer, and TI or not it seems on the money if I understand you right:
Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier View Post
... the more you wait, the more patient you are, when all of a sudden the body performs the switch/weight transfer, if you're not ready at the front well you end up late. Late on catch, late on pull through. You can never really manage to propel yourself over, as you remain behind and elbow pulls first and you can't reach your optimal efficiency. So just be careful with this. If you look at Shinji or any good TI swimmer/coach, you'll notice that the hand never really stops. It sinks slowly but surly during skate and just like a tiger collapsing on its prey, it accelerate more slowly first than once you have your grip, you can move over, or roll over, or swim over.
Charles ... can't express my gratitude :) ... unbelievably brilliant reply ... thanks :)

I'm really happy you came to comment. And, yes, it was a dumb title for the thread! :D BTW that still you attached (did you make it? I'm blown away!) is one of my "favs"! My spiderman pose! Arrghh! :D

And lastly thanks for all your appreciation and encouragements! You are very much appreciated :) As Shinji is way too busy I think I may start checking out flights to Canada! ;) :P
__________________
A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
~ George Kelly

"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov
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  #48  
Old 01-28-2015
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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Old threads never die

http://totalimmersion.net/forum/showthread.php?t=7108
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  #49  
Old 01-28-2015
novaswimmer novaswimmer is offline
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Default Have to laugh

Talvi,

I looked at your videos and had to laugh, because the other evening I was swimming and I noticed that I was doing the same thing with my hand that you were doing.

When I breathe -- for me, it's especially to my left side -- my extended, underwater right hand sort of rises up after the spear, with my hand higher in the water than my elbow. What this probably does is applies some brakes to my glide and streamline.

I never realized I was doing this until I saw your video and then double-checked my hand! I suppose I do this because my body thinks it helps me to raise my head higher to catch a longer, easier breath -- sort of like sculling. I think it also caused me to veer to the right a bit.

So then I double-checked my left hand when I breathe to the right side, and it didn't seem to be a problem on the other side. And what's funny is that initially when I started all this TI stuff, I had a much easier time breathing on my left side. After practicing many hours, my breathing and form is now actually better and easier on my right side! I guess all the practice has paid off!

So, now I'm focusing on left-side breathing again! Last night I made a more concerted effort to catch an earlier breath (mouth following shoulder up to air), and with more of a head-spine alignment as my head rotated to air, rather than a stretching of my neck up to air. This seems to have helped!... and my hand did not feel the need to rise up.

So hard to talk about these nuances in words.

Last edited by novaswimmer : 01-28-2015 at 02:51 PM.
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  #50  
Old 01-28-2015
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by novaswimmer View Post
... I looked at your videos and had to laugh...
Oi, careful, I know where you live :D ;) I know what you mean! Spiderman, spiderman! I've interpreted this flailing mostly as parallax, but prompted by public opinion (!) I've been studying head-on + side-on views again. I've attached a marked up still to show the two kinks in my line that have been referred to many times here.

That "upward movement" is the resultant view created by rotating my bent arm. I've been focused on keeping my arm relaxed but in total ignorance of the fact that it was so bent inwards! I have to then straighten it and get it facing in the right direction before I can even begin anything useful. It introduces an extra step in proceedings!

Today I've been trying to enter my hand "beside my ear" (sort of) and then extend it directly to its final extended position on the track. When I'm successful the stroke begins to transform.

The other issue I've been working on today is the kink in my body. IMO that also is at least partly caused by entering my hand all wrong. Today I found that the fly kick I do (great for rugby not so hot for swimming!) comes when I break in the middle like that too (the blue lines).

One thing I've found that works for me is to focus on my elongation being from top of head to toes, rather than from fingertips to toe. This allows me to better position my hands and removes tension from the stroke.

FWIW :)
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 06-RightArmPull-FrontViewEDIT.jpg (41.8 KB, 8 views)
__________________
A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
~ George Kelly

"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov
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