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  #11  
Old 06-12-2009
BobL BobL is offline
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I'm definitely new to TI but from my understanding and observtions many other swimming techniques focus a lot on the pull and not on the spearing into the water. Many swimmers appear to 'slap' the surface when they enter there arm practically fully extended as they are already starting the pull part of the stroke. Doing as you describe with relaxed hands might not create as much of a problem.

I know in my lessons there was an emphasis about not extending your arm too far above the water and putting your arm through the 'hole' as you describe. I would guess it is not as big of a deal as long as you keep the leading hand forward while the spearing hand extends out. As long as you don't turn it into a traditional 'catch up' drill which seems to hurt rotation.

Bob
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  #12  
Old 06-12-2009
andreasl33 andreasl33 is offline
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Let me be clear: This is not how I am currently doing it. I am entering fairly early and spearing forward. But I would not go as far as to say those that say otherwise have it wrong. In fact, physics, as I understand it, seems to be on their side. In swimming, the perception of what is good technique and what is not is not static. IMO, its not a bad idea to always look at the physics behind every bit of advice. If it is obviously supported by physics, it may be worth a closer look.
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  #13  
Old 06-12-2009
AWP AWP is offline
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I may be wrong, but I do not necessarily think that a handy entry fairly far in front is in contradiction to TI principles, if one understands TI as a philosophy to avoid as much drag as possible.[/quote]



A TI swimmer is ...
... able to reach as far forward on recovery as will allow for him/her to effectively enter hand, elbow, and shoulder (in that order) at an angle that will utilize the maximum 'power' of the weight shift, driving the 'high' hip down, and taking the most advantage of the stroking rhythm.
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  #14  
Old 06-12-2009
edlevin edlevin is offline
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Here are two cents on the hand entry question. (Disclaimer -I'm a novice, but have looked at video pretty obsessively)

I think the root of the confusion is maybe failing to make the distinction between what works for elite swimmers, and what works for the rest of us.

Yes, physics tells us it's easier to move your arm through air than water. And it's a fact that elite swimmers do not spear downward in TI fashion. In fact, their hands enter far forward over the water, and stay close to the surface. I think the reason they do this is closely related to EVF. For elite swimmers there's an advantage in having the hand close to the surface - it's the optimal point for initiating an EVF catch. They have to make a slight non-propulsive downward motion - but it's worth it for them because their catch is so effective.

So, yes, there's less resistance when you move your arm through the air - but what do you do with your arm when it's in the water? If, like 99% of us, you can't do EVF, you're better off with compromise - spearing slightly downward, where normal people can start to get an effective catch.

Which gets us back to that anti-TI swim coach - he may be right about that Brazilian medalist he coached. But those techniques don't apply to the rest of us.
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  #15  
Old 06-12-2009
shuumai shuumai is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edlevin View Post
And it's a fact that elite swimmers do not spear downward in TI fashion.
Well, they might not spear downward, but some do spear, or extend, forward. Some go instantly for the catch while others have a slight delay, making it more evident that they are extending forward. I don't think it's a typical approach to enter the water with the arm already bent and to begin the next pull immediately. At least not for middle to longer distances.

As for air being less resistive than water, yeah the air has less resistance for things like recovery. Also, there is lower resistance deeper below the surface of the water than right at the surface. But, if we stay above the water too long, or swim too deep during the stroke, other problems result.

If the arm extending through the air then causes the more massive legs to sink the water, will the reduced drag of the air compensate for the massive drag of the legs? Doubt it.
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  #16  
Old 06-12-2009
andreasl33 andreasl33 is offline
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The question is: Can you enter the arm far in front and still get it down to the usual position quickly, without pushing down water? I'd say this can be done, see the following picture:


PHP Code:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~((""""))~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                             
//======================(( head  ))
         
--->             //                          ((_____))
flow of water          //
pushing 
against hand
...          |   ... is creating a downward force that will push   
                         V   the relaxed arm down to stroking position
   

legend
:
~~~   = 
water
===   = extended arm
//    = hand angled down and forward 
I will hopefully one day be a better swimmer than artist.
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  #17  
Old 06-12-2009
naj naj is offline
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Before this post gets completely off the rails let me bring everyone back to MY original point. The only thing I wanted to emphasize (and apparently I didn't in my first comment), was that they (the guys who mocked my stroke) have they're way of swimming and I have mine. I'm not an elite swimmer, never gonna be, but I sure as heck can swim for up to five miles with only two breaks and a bit of food and not feel any effects after the swim and this is all due to Terry formulating TI.

Your right, air is less dense and all that stuff and I never graduated high school so I can't go in to great detail about all the physics of everything but I know immediately when my stroke is off whether in open water or the pool and can correct it almost instantly. That came threw tons of hours doing the drills, watching and re-watching the "Easy Free" DVD and emailing Terry till my fingers were sore and asking questions on this great forum.

A lot of folks think TI is bunk and will argue until their heads explode that what we all are trying to do is wrong. I say, let'em! I really don't concern myself with that talk. I know one thing and one thing only, I never knew how to swim before this, not one lick. I learned at the age of 43 and now I swam a mile-and-a-half in 33 minutes in open water, dropped from 45 minutes to 34 minutes in a pool doing a mile non-stop, can give the so-called fast swimmers at my pool nearly a half-length start and still catch up to them going at a warm-up pace, and now I see swimming from Acatraz Prison and the span of the Golden Gate Bridge as fun challenges.

Why?

Because TI works for me, maybe not for a lot of the guys in my club but for me it darn well does. And I can't thank Terry and the coaches for making that possible. So lets remember why we started swimming the TI way because we wanted efficiency, grace, power and the ability to swim very long stretches in both open water and the pool.

Okay enough moaning, sorry but I just wanted to clarify why I wrote this topic in the first place.

Keep Swimming!
Naji
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  #18  
Old 06-12-2009
shuumai shuumai is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andreasl33 View Post
I will hopefully one day be a better swimmer than artist.
You already are! hahaha

If the recovering hand extends too far out front, the body rotation has to wait for it to enter, but also it might be more likely to end up pushing the water instead of slicing into it. Though straight-arm recovery and butterfly recovery seem to extend way forward.

Breaststroke recovery is sometimes done partly above the surface to reduce drag.
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  #19  
Old 06-12-2009
andreasl33 andreasl33 is offline
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Quote:
If the recovering hand extends too far out front, the body rotation has to wait for it to enter, but also it might be more likely to end up pushing the water instead of slicing into it.
That's right. It would get much more catch-up style. So too far ahead is certainly bad. The reason why I have some doubts about a long spear is that during the spear the hand moves much faster than swim speed through the water. And we all know that water resistance increases with the speed squared. So if one could shorten the spear somehow, without sacrificing some higher goal, it would certainly be good.
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  #20  
Old 06-13-2009
Mike from NS Mike from NS is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by naj View Post
.........
A lot of folks think TI is bunk and will argue until their heads explode that what we all are trying to do is wrong. I say, let'em! I really don't concern myself with that talk.
Naji
I agree with that Naji.

I found TI through searching for "how to swim" material at the library when I decided it was high time for me to learn (at about 54). It made the most sense and was presented in a way that a complete non swimmer could find a starting point. Now after 2 years of not frequent enough practice, I am starting to get the hang of it. Each pool visit now in concluded with hoping I can get back sooner. Before, the conclusion of a swim was partnered with thoughts of why bother - it's not for me....

It's working for you and I feel it's working for me. I just need more practice time.

Mike
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