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  #1  
Old 04-20-2016
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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Default TI version of EVF?

I have seen these kind of videos about getting a EVF a few times and I wonder what they try to achieve.
If they try to achieve a beginning of a feeling for the EVF and a patient lead arm to achieve it, OK I can understand that.
This version is also very easy on the shoulder.

The main problem is that the shown action is not properly connected with the bodyroll.
Nobody rolls first and does almost the whole pull with a body that has already rotated.
This is against whole body swimming and makes the pull an arms only exercise.
Power in the stroke comes from accelerating bodyroll and arm together.

So, is it for the beginnerstage, like the deep speering arm, or do we really want to pull this way?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ma5N70LIBx8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25BEZdPkxTY
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  #2  
Old 04-20-2016
descending descending is offline
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There are obvious degrees from swimmer to swimmer on how much rotation is in play when the catch begins in addition to the pull. My catch happens much shallower than the first video. As you pointed out it does not scan when trying to do that in the water. She has rotated all the way down to flat and keeps her arm in that position it's akin to spinning your wheels on it the way I'm watching her. If I tried to swim with that motion I'd feel lost. It's almost as if she is attempting to disengage her stroke potential. Could be a great way to learn for someone with a bad shoulder though I agree it's super easy on the body. It's definitely not a stroke that is going to go fast if that is the goal.
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  #3  
Old 04-20-2016
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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Yeah, I have tried to advance the bodyroll relative to the pull that way, and it works up to a point. Feels rather relaxed, but relatively much tricep action.
Good for people who pull too early, and there are a lot of them.
But if you wrench the pull through the core and kick, you get a lot more bang out of your pull.

In almost all normal cases, when the pull is halfway, whole arm perpenidicular to forward movement at the shoulderline, the body is rotated halfway, rotating through the flat position at that stage.

This looks more like (ideal) reality
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXsE7apdQMs

Last edited by Zenturtle : 04-20-2016 at 12:46 PM.
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  #4  
Old 04-20-2016
s.sciame s.sciame is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post

Nobody rolls first and does almost the whole pull with a body that has already rotated.
I guess fooboo does.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post

This is against whole body swimming and makes the pull an arms only exercise.
totally agree, and I wouldn't even call it EVF but LVF (late vertical forearm), it's falling into the catch. It's so easy and safe because you're far from leaving your "scapular plane" and you don't need to intrarotate the shoulder, but aside from drilling I don't see any benefit in swimming this way.

Salvo
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  #5  
Old 04-20-2016
Danny Danny is offline
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I think one thing that is hard to see in such videos is that, in addition to body roll, there should be a "shoulder roll" (bad name) which means that the pulling shoulder is going back and the recovering should is going forward. As already noted, for people with shoulder problems (like me) early rotation really helps, but you can still get a lot of connectivity to the core by keeping your forward shoulder advanced during the roll and only pulling the shoulder back in the pull phase. I find that it's easier on my shoulder to have rotated my body before really starting the pull, but I get a lot of connection to my body through a "kayak paddle" type of motion with my shoulders, coupled with the remainder of my rotation. I envision that the shoulders follow a path a little like what an elliptical bike pedal would follow, where the distance of the pedal to the axis gets long front and back and short up and down. The biggest surge of rotation can still happen as the arm comes out in back in recovery and gets thrown forward.

I admit I pay a price in speed for this, but it's a price my shoulders are happy to pay.
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  #6  
Old 04-20-2016
descending descending is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s.sciame View Post
totally agree, and I wouldn't even call it EVF but LVF (late vertical forearm), it's falling into the catch. It's so easy and safe because you're far from leaving your "scapular plane" and you don't need to intrarotate the shoulder, but aside from drilling I don't see any benefit in swimming this way.

Salvo
I think that is a great term to describe it 'falling' into the catch. As long as the swimmer isn't concerned with going as fast as possible it's a great way to swim. I'd say my warm up stroke mirrors that for 500 or so while I work up a little lather and get loose. Once again I think it's another arrow in the quiver to make a well rounded swimmer. Nothing wrong with that stroke at all it serves a purpose. For some it warms them up and for some it allows them to swim with suspect shoulders.
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  #7  
Old 04-20-2016
Danny Danny is offline
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I thought a little more about this, and I would like to modify what I said in my response above. I think there are two different paradigms for how to connect the core to the limbs when swimming freestyle. Each paradigm is an idealization and, in reality, all of us tend to follow the one or the other to greater or lesser extents. The first paradigm (which seems to me to be very similar to the TI approach) is to hold your core like a pencil pointing in the direction you are swimming in. As you swim, this pencil should rotate, but it shouldn’t bend or move up or down. In this paradigm, I think that ZT’s points are well taken. If you rotate first to get an EVF, then you have wasted that rotation, which could have been used for propulsion.

Lately I have been swimming laps of body dolphin and this has had a big impact on my freestyle, which brings me to the second paradigm: undulation. A 2-beat kick can be seen as a sort of diagonal undulation, where the kicking leg undulates you over the anchored arm on the opposite side. In this paradigm, you don’t have to “fall into the catch” as proposed above. Instead, you can undulate over your forward arm and, as you do so, it goes into catch position. What amazed me about this approach is that it means I don’t have to wait on gravity for my catch to take place, but my shoulders still feel great when I do it. So this approach isn’t stressing my shoulders. I think there are also other ways than body dolphin to key into this form of swimming. One armed drills also helps.

In a recent thread, Tomoy discussed the different possibilities of timing the kick to the catch or to the recovery. I think the timing you choose in this regard will also depend on how much undulation you are using in your stroke.
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  #8  
Old 04-20-2016
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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I dont understand the description of falling into the catch guys.
This delayed catch is the opposite of falling into the catch to me.
My association with falling into the catch is entering the arm like a meathook, and use bodyweight from rotational inertia, the opposite kick and/or some falling from a bounce into that meathook, usually used with an arm timing thats more towards windmilling or at the edge of front quadrant.
This delayed catch is more like pushing a car when the motor has just sprung to life and the car is just accelerating forward when you start to push.
The good thing is that the car is moving forward, so in swimming this means rotation from the bottom up has been achieved.

In my view perfect arm movement timing to roll is shown in the Natalie Coughlin clip.
That seems a good starting point for a wide range of speeds. And she doesnt use an extereme EVF.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQ8iw8q2F9U

I think the relative small timing differences we are discussing are small compared to the dryland examples.
How much bodyrotation angle can you go wrong from the end of bodyrotation and start of pullback?
In the dryland its almost a full bodyrotation say 90 degrees.
I think the max you can shift the relative timing is about 10-20 degrees in bodyrotation around the point of maximum extension and maximum bodyroll.
When looking at the Natalie Coughlin clip, there really are only minimal options to shift the arm/bodyroll timing
without seriously messing up your stroke.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 04-20-2016 at 07:26 PM.
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  #9  
Old 04-20-2016
ti97
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny View Post

Lately I have been swimming laps of body dolphin and this has had a big impact on my freestyle, which brings me to the second paradigm: undulation.
interesting....body dolphin flat on your chest, or on your side? I also started this a while ago but more for breast stroke
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  #10  
Old 04-20-2016
CoachGaryF CoachGaryF is offline
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I think peak catch is achieved at about the same time your body is in a flat position. During the first half of body rotation the arm is transitioning from spear to catch. I can see this being called "falling into the catch," as you create the catch as your body falls from rotated to flat (mind you, flat is not a place you stay, just a snapshot in time.) I don't think this phase of the stroke is propulsive; I think it's the precursor to propulsion. So when does propulsion mostly occur? As the catch is fully realized and the torso / body mass shifts from this fleeting flat position over to the other side. This image seems to me about right: I don't think the stroke is significantly propulsive until the moment pictured here and then the portion that happens next. And please don't crucify me over the source of the image :(
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