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  #1  
Old 02-03-2016
jenson1a jenson1a is offline
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Default More Questions on 2 BK (Again)

Have been working diligently on my stroke timing, breathing, and the other elephant in the room--the 2 BK.

Coach Stuart had suggested doing 4 kicks and 4 strokes swimming, which I have been doing. He had also suggested to another poster to use long fins to get the idea of kicking from the hips. He also said, and I quote:

"In drill, you connect the hip rotation with kick (simultaneously), but kick initiates rotation. Notice as right leg kicks down, right hip pivots up and left hip down. This is Newton's third law of motion in action - the downward kicking leg raises the same side hip."

Don't understand this. If I kick from the hip, isn't the whole movement starting at the hip? And doesn't this mean the hip is going down along with the leg? For me, it seems that my pulling arm is the real driver of moving the hip up, not the downward kick.


Comments?

Sherry

Last edited by jenson1a : 02-03-2016 at 10:08 AM. Reason: If the hip rotation and kick is simultaneous, how does kick initiate rotation?
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  #2  
Old 02-03-2016
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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I think shoulder driven freestyle is just your type of swimming.
If you feel that the pull is turning your hips along its not such a bad thing. Thats normal timing, you only use more front end driven rotation then backend. It should be more balanced idealy.
So give that hips an extra push with the leg to finish the movement off.

Since you have no problem with sinking legs, just shut them off completely and just observe what they want to do.
When you feel your hips rotate, just give them a tiny extra push with the legs so they keep moving in sync with your sholders and not lagging.
When this timing and very little effort comes naturally, you can make this kick a bit firmer.
You will probably never become a bottom up rotater that lets the kick wave forward to the shoulders, but maybe you can go to a swim style where front and back have an even share.
Keep the legs straight(ish).

looked up your swimming
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlR3...ature=youtu.be

Its all pretty strong and toned form fingertips to hips, but the legs just arent taking part in the action.
They arealmost dangling behind your body, and what the do works against bodyrotation.
Several swim schools devide swimmers in different types. Seems to me your swimstyle is not leg driven, what resembles shoulder driven freestye, swinger style, or swimming like the float and paddle in finding freestyle jargon.
Main thing is to get them not working against what the rest is doing, so keep the straight and at the surface is your main priority.
Get a roll rhythm going with straght and level legs and and try to help that roll rhytm a bit with the legs as discribed above.
Keeping your body as straight and connected from head o toes as possible, without any leg movement. is the starting point.
Think of glueing your legs together like one leg or tail, as an balancing, extending and stremlining end of your torso.
If you can really imagining yourself moving throug the water as a perfectly straigt torpedo, than its time to add some minute leg action.
You can use a small pull buoy to achieve this perception. Changing the position of the pull buoy will highlighten bends in your bodyline.
More leg involvement will take your swimming to another level, but it will need more work from your core while taking some pressure of the arms at the same time.
Untill your core gets smart (which can take a loooooong time) it will feel like hard work from the core.
Terry says the core doesn fatigue easily. Forget that for at least 6-12 months, and if you swim with a decent pace like in your video.

I believe I have said all this stuff before, but looking at your clip again its pretty obvious to see what you are doing, being a shoulder driven type myself.
I think you are actually swimming pretty strong for your age. Doesnt need so much tuneup, but more leg through core connection is your most important long term goal.
When that gets better, I am almost certain a higher strokerate, lighter touch , smooth transition freestyle is your optimal way of swimming.
Now its halfway between this, and riding on the edges longer as in TI.

Whatever style, your kicktiming is now the opposite of what it should be. Your right leg kicks when your left leg should kick and your left leg is the same but wit less effort.
Since you probably have swum like this for years, and the kicking is a very deep (and unconscious) ingrained part of the stroke it will take some mental effort to completely revert this action.
Focussing on the upbeat instead of the downbeat might help also.
Best to completely shut off the kick (can you do this?) and get the good timing ingrained on dryland probably.
Then go to the pool and do the dryland from muscle memory in the water.
If body gets confused again. only do slowmo good timing or no kick at all.
We already discussed the basic kick rotate when floating in supernan and that didnt do the trick.
Forget the clock, timing aids and distances.
Get that alignment, connection and kick fixed.

Another possiblility
One leg kicking. change left and right leg. Use one fin to make it even more extreme
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXCExj3292A

Last edited by Zenturtle : 02-03-2016 at 06:09 PM.
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  #3  
Old 02-03-2016
gary p gary p is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
jenson1a, if that's your video, I can understand why you're having trouble feeling the connection. Your kick is 180* out of phase. You're kicking with the leg opposite leg of your pull, when you should be kicking with the leg on same side as you're pulling.

Watch Terry here: https://youtu.be/hC8ZZZhabp4?t=47s


Quote:
If I kick from the hip, isn't the whole movement starting at the hip? And doesn't this mean the hip is going down along with the leg?
When instructed to "kick from the hip," that just means to flex at the hip, not the knee. A lot of people want to kick by bending their knee, but that creates less power and more drag.

To understand how the kick creates lift at the hip, pick up a broom. Imagine the bristles are your feet, your top hand is the hip joint. Now sweep by applying pressure with your lower hand. This simulates the kicking force of your leg muscles. Now feel which direction the pressure is in your upper hand. It's the opposite direction of your lower hand is moving. That's the hip lift you get with a kick.

Last edited by gary p : 02-03-2016 at 07:26 PM.
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  #4  
Old 02-04-2016
jenson1a jenson1a is offline
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Gary

Yes that is my video which was taken almost a year ago. Since then I have been doing many lengths with the focal point being the 2 bk. I found that doing underwater spear switch, with a snorkel, and concentrating that the kick occurs on the same side of the pulling arm. Maybe not the best way to concentrate on, but at least it isn't kicking on the wrong side.

So many people have pointed out that the movement is the same as walking. But for some reason when I get in the water, my natural movement was that when I kick down (say on my right side), my right hip would go down, not up. It took real concentration to make the hip go up. At this time I think the majority of the time I am kicking correctly. (at least as far as the hip going up on the same side as the downward leg)/

Coach Stuart had posted that to get the feel of the hip oriented kick, use diving fins. When I did this, right leg down, right hip up. Big surprise because when I took off the fins the hip went down. Don't know what the reason could be--could just be that the fins are so much longer and wider than my foot. Anyway, I seem to have gotten that connection for most of the time.

Your broom example makes sense to me, so tks for the illustration. My reason for starting this thread was to get some idea of the "why it is" more than the "how to do it."

Sherry
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  #5  
Old 02-04-2016
jenson1a jenson1a is offline
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ZT

Thanks for your detailed post. Most of what you said had been posted already in the thread of my video. I printed out that whole thread and have been using not only your comments and suggestions, but others as well.

Can't say I have totally ingrained the correct way of 2 BK, but it is a whole lot better. Also focusing on core control, both in and out of the water.

Like I mentioned to Gary, was not too concerned about how to go about it, but more about why it worked that way. The "it" being the downward kick causing the same side hip to go up. Still not sure about if this way is so natural, why do some of us do it the wrong way? Maybe not so important to ask

Sherry
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  #6  
Old 02-04-2016
sclim sclim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jenson1a View Post
Coach Stuart had posted that to get the feel of the hip oriented kick, use diving fins. When I did this, right leg down, right hip up. Big surprise because when I took off the fins the hip went down. Don't know what the reason could be--could just be that the fins are so much longer and wider than my foot. Anyway, I seem to have gotten that connection for most of the time.
If it is working for diving fins, but not for barefoot, why not try, after diving fins, smaller pool training fins. If that works, find the smallest pool fins you can get, or else train with the pool fins that work for repeated drill until it becomes ingrained.
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  #7  
Old 02-04-2016
CoachDavidShen CoachDavidShen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jenson1a View Post
Have been working diligently on my stroke timing, breathing, and the other elephant in the room--the 2 BK.

Coach Stuart had suggested doing 4 kicks and 4 strokes swimming, which I have been doing. He had also suggested to another poster to use long fins to get the idea of kicking from the hips. He also said, and I quote:

"In drill, you connect the hip rotation with kick (simultaneously), but kick initiates rotation. Notice as right leg kicks down, right hip pivots up and left hip down. This is Newton's third law of motion in action - the downward kicking leg raises the same side hip."

Don't understand this. If I kick from the hip, isn't the whole movement starting at the hip? And doesn't this mean the hip is going down along with the leg? For me, it seems that my pulling arm is the real driver of moving the hip up, not the downward kick.


Comments?

Sherry
I learned and teach 2BK this way, and note that this is different from flutter kick.

1. start with both legs straight out behind you.
2. select your kicking leg. relax at the knee and let it drop down slightly. this cocks the leg for kicking. both feet should still be at the same level approximately - if the foot gets too much above the other foot, it is likely you are not dropping the knee but bringing the heel to the butt to cock the leg. so there are two ways to cock the leg: bring the heel to butt behind you, or bring the knee forward but do not move the foot. either way cocks the leg. but for 2BK, bring the knee forward - or in our case since we're laying on the water, drop the knee down slightly.
3. snap the lower leg out from under the knee in order to kick it. this drives the hip on the same kicking leg away/up, causing a rotation about your spine as an axis. the opposite hip of the non kicking leg is rotating down in reaction.
4. let forward motion and water buoyancy carry the kicked leg back in line with the other leg.
5. repeat for the other side.

just so i'm clear - Coach Stuart's quote above doesn't reference kicking from the hips. however, you do say it was for another poster. can you point me to that post so i can take a look at what he said exactly? Thanks.
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  #8  
Old 02-05-2016
sclim sclim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jenson1a View Post
Don't understand this. If I kick from the hip, isn't the whole movement starting at the hip? And doesn't this mean the hip is going down along with the leg? For me, it seems that my pulling arm is the real driver of moving the hip up, not the downward kick.


Sherry
This is more a question of intellectually understanding what's going on; and it may become obvious once you do it right. But until that happens, here's an attempt to explain the mechanics of what's going on when you do it right, and where your logic is faulty.

Suppose you are lying face down on a comfortable carpet. This is you floating on the top layer of water. As you spear with your left hand, and pull with your right arm stroke, imagine a snap-kick initiating from the right hip (or actually from even higher, from the lower muscles of the right side of the trunk). The right thigh angulates down, so the line from the trunk through the right hip into the thigh is no longer 180 degrees (straight line) but more like a 170 degree obtuse angle. (Let's also temporarily assume that the leg from the thigh downwards is a straight rigid line, although in real life there would be some whippy springiness at the knee and ankle and mid-foot during the kick action).

This angulation forces the foot down into the carpet, which resists (like the water would), and over the carpet, your right hip would be forced up. Because the lifting at the hip is to the right of the midline, depending on how far to the left or towards the centre-line your outstretched spearing hand is supported by the carpet (let's pretend you're really strong in this non-water supported demonstration), the rising force of the right hip would tend to roll the back of your body to the left (or, in the context of your position in the water, into a roll to the right).

This carpet example is a little simplified, because in the water you shouldn't be pushing down with your lead hand. The downward force on the left front quadrant is really supplied by the inertial mass, maybe some gravitational effect, maybe some downward force on your downward spearing left lead hand, but combined with this force, your right kick rotates the body around its long axis.

Just because the right hip is the driver of the force doesn't mean that the right hip must move bodily downwards. When I do pushups on the carpet, my shoulder and chest muscles are pushing downwards, but they move bodily upwards as I push.

Last edited by sclim : 02-05-2016 at 02:50 AM.
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  #9  
Old 02-05-2016
Rajan Rajan is offline
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Hi!

Actually I had tried kicking the way you have mentioned by following your advice earlier in this forum. This time you mentioned the same thing in little more detail.

Could you please guide me when I try to cock the leg by keeping both feet at the same level, I don't find that there is an enough bent in my knee to kick the leg down.

Will it be the right way that instead of just relaxing the leg to achieve that bent in the knee, if I bend the knee down by giving the knee a downward force by keeping both the feet at the same level. This I am saying after watching a Shinji's video in which he was advising this way in a standing position. You may have watched that video.

Regards

Rajan



Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachDavidShen View Post
I learned and teach 2BK this way, and note that this is different from flutter kick.


2. select your kicking leg. relax at the knee and let it drop down slightly. this cocks the leg for kicking. both feet should still be at the same level approximately - if the foot gets too much above the other foot, it is likely you are not dropping the knee but bringing the heel to the butt to cock the leg. so there are two ways to cock the leg: bring the heel to butt behind you, or bring the knee forward but do not move the foot. either way cocks the leg. but for 2BK, bring the knee forward - or in our case since we're laying on the water, drop the knee down slightly.

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  #10  
Old 02-05-2016
jenson1a jenson1a is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachDavidShen View Post
I learned and teach 2BK this way, and note that this is different from flutter kick.

1. start with both legs straight out behind you.
2. select your kicking leg. relax at the knee and let it drop down slightly. this cocks the leg for kicking. both feet should still be at the same level approximately - if the foot gets too much above the other foot, it is likely you are not dropping the knee but bringing the heel to the butt to cock the leg. so there are two ways to cock the leg: bring the heel to butt behind you, or bring the knee forward but do not move the foot. either way cocks the leg. but for 2BK, bring the knee forward - or in our case since we're laying on the water, drop the knee down slightly.
3. snap the lower leg out from under the knee in order to kick it. this drives the hip on the same kicking leg away/up, causing a rotation about your spine as an axis. the opposite hip of the non kicking leg is rotating down in reaction.
4. let forward motion and water buoyancy carry the kicked leg back in line with the other leg.
5. repeat for the other side.

just so i'm clear - Coach Stuart's quote above doesn't reference kicking from the hips. however, you do say it was for another poster. can you point me to that post so i can take a look at what he said exactly? Thanks.
Coach Dave

Found that post in the thread, Taming of the legs. Have copied his post

Long fins are great at taming the legs, namely taming knee flexion. It's very difficult to kick from the knee with long fins, but most important (with long fins) the swimmer will feel the flow from hip through toes or end of fin. Also promotes pointing toes not flexing tight ankles (Frankenstein feet).

A good two beat kick timing practice is to wear only one long fin on right or left foot and concentrate on single side timing and flow through toes in freestyle, i.e left hip drives down, feel energy flow through right leg through the end of fin.

Stuart

The fact that he says it is very difficult to kick from the knee with long fins... so I assumed that the long fins would promote more of the feeling of kicking from the hip.?.


Does this help?

Sherry
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