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  #1  
Old 01-13-2016
jenson1a jenson1a is offline
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Default Strokes per Minute & Breathing

I am a little confused about the way strokes per minute and the relationship between that and breathing. If I set the TT for 1.50 and divide that into 60, I get 40 strokes per minute. When I throw in how many breaths per minute and I breathe every other stroke, I get 20 breaths per minute. However, this doesn't take into account the number of seconds on the push off where there aren't any breaths taken, yet the clock is still ticking. That push off takes 4.5 seconds @ 1:50. When swimming multiple lengths, you have multiple push offs and also the turns which delay the number of breaths. When I swim, my turns eat up 2 to 2.5 beeps in addition to the 3 beep push off.

So I guess my question is why is there any importance on the strokes per minute when a lot of the time, no strokes are taken?

Sherry
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  #2  
Old 01-13-2016
s.sciame s.sciame is offline
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In fact I believe one should use the simple calculation when swimming in open water and take into account the less breaths you get when swimming in a pool because of the turns. The goal should be having enough breaths in both the environments. Enough for me means not less than when walking or jogging. Less than this is breathing diet.

When swimming in open water I can breathe every 3 strokes even at race pace. In a 25m pool at the same stroke rate and pace I have to breathe every 2 and every 1 before the turn.

Cheers,
Salvo
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  #3  
Old 01-15-2016
CoachBobM CoachBobM is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jenson1a View Post
So I guess my question is why is there any importance on the strokes per minute when a lot of the time, no strokes are taken?
The main reason for paying attention to strokes per minute is not because of breathing, but because your stroke rate together with your stroke count determine your speed.

You are correct that there is a pause after your start and after each turn when you are not stroking, so your stroke count times your stroke rate (as measured by the TT) only determine your speed for the part of each pool length when you are stroking. But this is only important if you actually need to know your exact speed for some reason. The distance you travel after each turn before you start stroking should be more or less constant, so if you increase SR/SC, you will be increasing your speed.


Bob
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  #4  
Old 01-17-2016
Danny Danny is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s.sciame View Post
In fact I believe one should use the simple calculation when swimming in open water and take into account the less breaths you get when swimming in a pool because of the turns. The goal should be having enough breaths in both the environments. Enough for me means not less than when walking or jogging. Less than this is breathing diet.

When swimming in open water I can breathe every 3 strokes even at race pace. In a 25m pool at the same stroke rate and pace I have to breathe every 2 and every 1 before the turn.

Cheers,
Salvo
This is interesting! Salvo, you must swim at a pretty high stroke rate to be able to breath while swimming the same way that you breath while walking.
I think I tend to swim in the 1.4 s/stroke range. When I try to come up with a comparison, I think of the doctors office, when he is listening to my lungs on a stethoscope. First he says "breath deep" then he listens while I hold my breath, then he says "exhale". I think that is approximately the cadence I use while swimming. When I push the tempo, my stroke rate goes up, so I automatically get more air. I breath on every third stroke unless I start to sense oxygen deprivation and then switch to every second stroke. No flip turns though.

Someone once told me that he took lessons from a TI instructor who impressed him because the instructor only needed one or two breaths per pool length to swim comfortably. I'm not nowhere near that efficient, but the above pacing does seem to work for me.
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  #5  
Old 01-17-2016
s.sciame s.sciame is offline
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Hi Danny,
breathing every 3 strokes at 1.4s/stroke means only 14 breaths per minute (14 in open water, in the pool even less depending on pushoff time).

Try to count your breaths right now while reading this: are they about 12? Then try to count your breaths while walking at brisk pace: about 20?
When running about 30?

So, isn't 14 or less for swimming a breath diet? Imho it can be enough only at easy pace and just for a while. I guess that TI instructor takes 2 breaths per length only at super easy pace and for a few lengths. If he had to swim his best 400 (or any distance > 50m) he would breathe much more.

Almost all the elite swimmers breathe every 2 strokes at race pace, at much higher stroke rates than many of us swim at. That is they take as much as 30 to 40 breaths per minute. Of course they breathe more not because of lack of efficiency.

https://www.totalimmersion.net/forum...57&postcount=2

Cheers,
Salvo
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  #6  
Old 01-17-2016
andyinnorway andyinnorway is offline
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I listened to a talk from a 100 mile sea swimmer last year and he said after 30 years as a scuba instructor he breathes only every 12-15 strokes for the whole 100 miles.

I don't get it but I think he's telling the truth.
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  #7  
Old 01-19-2016
Danny Danny is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s.sciame View Post
Hi Danny,
breathing every 3 strokes at 1.4s/stroke means only 14 breaths per minute (14 in open water, in the pool even less depending on pushoff time).

Try to count your breaths right now while reading this: are they about 12? Then try to count your breaths while walking at brisk pace: about 20?
When running about 30?

So, isn't 14 or less for swimming a breath diet? Imho it can be enough only at easy pace and just for a while. I guess that TI instructor takes 2 breaths per length only at super easy pace and for a few lengths. If he had to swim his best 400 (or any distance > 50m) he would breathe much more.

Almost all the elite swimmers breathe every 2 strokes at race pace, at much higher stroke rates than many of us swim at. That is they take as much as 30 to 40 breaths per minute. Of course they breathe more not because of lack of efficiency.

https://www.totalimmersion.net/forum...57&postcount=2

Cheers,
Salvo
Hi Salvo,

You're right that you need more oxygen when you push the tempo. I'm referring to a relaxed pace or a short distance. When the tempo goes up, I breath every second stroke, and my stroke rate goes down, maybe to 1.2 or below. Still not sub 1 sec. like you younger guys and, when I'm done swimming 300 m this way, I'm panting.
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  #8  
Old 01-19-2016
sclim sclim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny View Post
Hi Salvo,

You're right that you need more oxygen when you push the tempo. I'm referring to a relaxed pace or a short distance. When the tempo goes up, I breath every second stroke, and my stroke rate goes down, maybe to 1.2 or below. Still not sub 1 sec. like you younger guys and, when I'm done swimming 300 m this way, I'm panting.
Hey, just trying to keep up with the understanding here -- you mean when the tempo goes up the stroke time period (or stroke interval) goes down, right? "Stroke Rate" is the same thing as "Stroke Frequency" which is the same thing as "Tempo" right?
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  #9  
Old 01-20-2016
s.sciame s.sciame is offline
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s.sciame
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Hi Danny,

by chance did you try counting breaths during rest/walking/jogging?

Having to stay away from the pool for a while (damn) because of a dermatitis around my eyes caused by the goggles (*), today I went for an easy run.
During the run (about 50 minutes) I counted breaths and strides per minute several times: 28-29 breaths at 168-174 (short) strides per minute, easy effort.

I know that for an easy swim there's probably less oxygen need than for an easy run (though I don't know why), anyway for an easy 50 minutes non stop swim I guess that allowing me less than 20 breaths per minute would mean going into diet mode.

Salvo


(*) by the way, has anybody ever experienced something similar? The dermatologist prescribed me a cortisone creme and, when I'll be ready to come back to the pool, I'll have to change goggles and hope the rash won't come again (I could have developed some allergy). I've always used swedish goggles and, curiously enough, here I read that they were born to solve the problem I'm having now...!

http://www.malmsten.com/produktblad/...y%20080715.pdf
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