Total Immersion Forums  

Go Back   Total Immersion Forums > Freestyle
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 06-04-2015
CoachStuartMcDougal's Avatar
CoachStuartMcDougal CoachStuartMcDougal is offline
coach
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,353
CoachStuartMcDougal
Default

Hi Sherry,

Sounds like a plan! Don't become too fixated on a 2bk, the most important thing is begin integrating kick timing tied with hip rotation even if there are stablizing kicks between rotational kick. Introducing kick timing in drills will go a long way and suddenly the kick timing happens naturally in whole stroke since after all it's how us humans naturally move :-)

Keep up the good work!

Stuart
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 06-13-2015
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Hamburg
Posts: 1,104
WFEGb
Default Some half hours later...

Hello Stuart,

some half hours later with this drill it develops a feeling how I think it should feel...

Some questions if I'm on the right path (can't interpret the video exactly):

- Astonishing: It's much easier with both hands in "pocket" for torpedo style.

- When trying to hold movements fluent the initiating hip-leg-kick is a pronounced one: In 8/8 beat the first is a quarter: ONE-2-3-4-5-6-7 | ONE.... Or has it to be exactly a 7/8th (3/4)?

- I have to add a little tension to my front arm just before initiating the kick to find less resistance otherwise the arm (more the elbow followed by the arm) wobbles around anywhere.

- After angling the front arm it feels more natural when the upper arm has light contact with the head just behind the ear.

- Temptation is very great to assist one of the rotations with a forced spearing.

- If balance falls appart my reflex is a felt shoulder driven rotation. Think that should be avoided?

Thanks again and best regards,
Werner
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 06-13-2015
CoachStuartMcDougal's Avatar
CoachStuartMcDougal CoachStuartMcDougal is offline
coach
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,353
CoachStuartMcDougal
Default

Hi Werner,

Yes, in torpedo having both arms molded to front of body, hands in front pockets, keeps the body, spine and position stable. Don't let arms wrap around hips or float about your side since this will often cause the back to arch, hips sink.

I'm not completely clear on your timing, but looks like "ONE" is the kick down tied with rotation, i.e. left leg kicks down rotates hips/torso to right side edge. It doesn't matter how many flutter kicks there are while holding skating edge in drill, but "ONE" kick down is tied with rotating body to opposite edge.

It's common when you 'fall off the beam' to trigger the pulling arm for balance, stability and/or rotation, but most important you are aware this is happening. Teaching whole body coordinated movement to rotate or "switch" from inside out - hips, leg, and recovery arm dropping in the mail slot takes time. As illustrated in demo, pulling arm is removed to learn and feel pivot/drive (rotation) about the hips. Any drill though, superman to skate, or any switch drill, is a great place to feel and refine connecting whole body movement & rotation in attainable mini-skills.

Stuart
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 06-15-2015
novaswimmer novaswimmer is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 228
novaswimmer
Default 2 beat kick

jenson:

It took me several weeks to work out the 2-beat kick to the point that it was becoming second nature. But for me I was making no more forward freestyle progress until I worked this out. You look really buoyant, so your progress should come faster than me!

First, on dry land I would stand upright and motion my arm spearing, while my opposite leg kicked forward. I did this over and over again with left spearing arm/right leg forward. Then switched off making a right spearing arm motion while my left leg kicked forward. This was only to pound into my brain the feel of the opposite motions that I would try to recreate underwater. Once underwater I would know if I did or did not get it right.

I think it might also work to do 'Superman glide' moving into a 'left skate' while right leg kicks down (toward bottom of pool) at the same time as the right arm pulls back. This might be worth practicing. Try to get that right leg to give your core rotation an 'assist'.

Or maybe the 'underswitch drill' -- as spearing arm moves to full extension in front of you, gently kick downward with the opposite leg. Again, try to feel the leg movement give your body rotation an extra umph.

Another thing I did was hold onto the bar on the starting platform that sticks out over the water just a bit. I'm in fairly deep water so my feet don't touch the bottom. Then in an upright position, I kick forward with right leg, trying to feel how that helps rotate my whole body clockwise. Hard to describe. Ideally one would have a bar suspended above the pool on a rope that would allow for twisting, but that would never happen at my pool!

Once you get the muscle memory ingrained and coordinated, then you can fine-tune the kick later. Play around with the amplitude, the timing in relation to the spear (slightly earlier, slightly later), as well as the degree to which you bend the knee. Try to kick more from the hip initially and end with a flick of the foot. I'm still working on this aspect and do better with my left leg than my right for some reason!

Last edited by novaswimmer : 06-15-2015 at 07:30 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 06-16-2015
jenson1a jenson1a is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Southwest Florida
Posts: 671
jenson1a
Default

novaswimmer

Thanks for the suggestions. I think that the dryland exercise is a good one to ingrain the correct actions. Its funny that when you walk or run, it is natural reaction that the hips, arms and legs do. For some reason when you are horizontal in the water, it can get screwed up.

One of my problems with the 2bk is that I just plain forget to do it. when I use a focal point, I concentrate just on that and usually my legs just drift behind me. Now I know I have to get to the point where I don't have to think about the kick. I'm in the pool 4 to 5 times a week. so I figure that if I concentrate on this, it should become a habit after a few weeks and can go on to other skills. The harder part is getting the correct timing. Need to go slow to think about what I am doing.

Tks agains

Sherry
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 06-16-2015
Danny Danny is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,442
Danny
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jenson1a View Post
novaswimmer

Thanks for the suggestions. I think that the dryland exercise is a good one to ingrain the correct actions. Its funny that when you walk or run, it is natural reaction that the hips, arms and legs do. For some reason when you are horizontal in the water, it can get screwed up.

One of my problems with the 2bk is that I just plain forget to do it. when I use a focal point, I concentrate just on that and usually my legs just drift behind me. Now I know I have to get to the point where I don't have to think about the kick. I'm in the pool 4 to 5 times a week. so I figure that if I concentrate on this, it should become a habit after a few weeks and can go on to other skills. The harder part is getting the correct timing. Need to go slow to think about what I am doing.

Tks agains

Sherry
Hi Sherry,

Just a warning from my own personal experience. I have worked on a focus until I thought I had it down really well and then moved on to other issues. To my chagrin, once I started focussing on other things, the focus I had learned got lost. So I am now at the stage where I have to be cautious when moving on to other things. Always bounce back to the old issue to make sure I am integrating it into the new stuff. It's tricky. Good luck!
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 06-17-2015
CoachDavidShen CoachDavidShen is offline
Coach
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 604
CoachDavidShen
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jenson1a View Post
novaswimmer

Thanks for the suggestions. I think that the dryland exercise is a good one to ingrain the correct actions. Its funny that when you walk or run, it is natural reaction that the hips, arms and legs do. For some reason when you are horizontal in the water, it can get screwed up.

One of my problems with the 2bk is that I just plain forget to do it. when I use a focal point, I concentrate just on that and usually my legs just drift behind me. Now I know I have to get to the point where I don't have to think about the kick. I'm in the pool 4 to 5 times a week. so I figure that if I concentrate on this, it should become a habit after a few weeks and can go on to other skills. The harder part is getting the correct timing. Need to go slow to think about what I am doing.

Tks agains

Sherry
It isn't talked about a lot, but there are practices using more than one focal point.

The easiest method are to cycle through 2-3 focal points on a continuous swim. Switch focal points on each length, then loop back to the first when you get through all of them.

the more difficult method is to actually employ 2-3 simultaneously.

in your case, you might try swimming 2BK on one length, then another focal point on another length, and back to 2BK on the 3rd, and so on.

you can also cycle focal points per interval. So first interval you swim you do 2BK. then next interval you do another focal point. next interval after that you go back to 2BK. and so on.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 06-17-2015
novaswimmer novaswimmer is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 228
novaswimmer
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jenson1a View Post
novaswimmer

...For some reason when you are horizontal in the water, it can get screwed up.

One of my problems with the 2bk is that I just plain forget to do it. when I use a focal point, I concentrate just on that and usually my legs just drift behind me. Now I know I have to get to the point where I don't have to think about the kick. I'm in the pool 4 to 5 times a week. so I figure that if I concentrate on this, it should become a habit after a few weeks and can go on to other skills. The harder part is getting the correct timing. Need to go slow to think about what I am doing.

Sherry
Yes, things get crazy once you're in the water! That is why I did a dry-land exercise first. Then, once I got in the water, I tried to aim for the same feeling. Now, when I did 'get it' everything else seemed to go wrong - balance, breathing, etc. So you sort of have to learn everything all over again.

For me, I'm not as buoyant, so I really need that 2-beat kick to help rotate my body (and head) to air. You don't seem to 'need' that assistance as much, so that is why you are swimming without it.

By the way, here is a good video to study and work on when you get a chance!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FiPpiC0629I

Last edited by novaswimmer : 06-18-2015 at 07:22 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 06-21-2015
jenson1a jenson1a is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Southwest Florida
Posts: 671
jenson1a
Default More Questions regarding 2bk and rotation

Yesterday I did a little filming while doing the 2 bk. Since the camera was mounted on the side of the pool and I was swimming directly away from camera, the thing I noticed was that it looks as if my legs rotate right along with hips and torso. When looking for some videos of the 2bk, most were from the side view and was hard to find how much the legs were rotating. from what I can tell from these videos is that the legs are more flat and the rotation stops at the end of the hips. Is this correct and if so, how do you correct rotation of legs from the upper part of body? I am swimming quite slowly and could be that if I speed up my sr that the leg rotation would even out?

Hope I am explaining this correctly and can get some answers.

Sherry
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 06-21-2015
sclim sclim is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,499
sclim
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by novaswimmer View Post
Yes, things get crazy once you're in the water! That is why I did a dry-land exercise first. Then, once I got in the water, I tried to aim for the same feeling. Now, when I did 'get it' everything else seemed to go wrong - balance, breathing, etc. So you sort of have to learn everything all over again.

For me, I'm not as buoyant, so I really need that 2-beat kick to help rotate my body (and head) to air. You don't seem to 'need' that assistance as much, so that is why you are swimming without it.

By the way, here is a good video to study and work on when you get a chance!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FiPpiC0629I
Beautiful, smooth, effortless and efficient!!

I notice that her very efficient kick is delayed to after the spear on one side and and arm pull/push on the other, so that all the power is not distributed occurring at only one point in the cycle, but rather "smeared out" in time somewhat, so she is getting forward propulsion from the kick after the arm propulsion stroke has finished, creating a much more even velocity/time curve, which must contribute hugely to her efficiency.

I also note that the kick is so late that it allows us to see that rotation has already been initiated and is well underway before the kick really powers up. This contradicts my own prior concept that the rotation is due to the kick (and yours too, as i understand your comment). Obviously it isn't; I guess it's done by exquisite body core control, which includes complex upper quadrant dynamics. With the catch arm stabilised in the water acting as some sort of fulcrum for the lever formed by the arm-shoulder girdle-arm complex, the rotation of the recovery arm in the longitudinal plane is augmented by some arm movement and momentum in the oblique plane (fingertips just above water, somewhat outboard from the position of hand exit) that imparts a downward component to the side of the body of the entry hand, which seems to be part of the rotational mechanism. The rotational motion of the kick is there, but it is added later, and doesn't initiate the rotation.

That's my best effort at figuring out what's going on.

Last edited by sclim : 06-22-2015 at 05:07 PM.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are Off
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 09:48 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.