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  #21  
Old 04-30-2015
jenson1a jenson1a is offline
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Thanks to all for the suggestions. Once I did that snorkel test, I realized that the problem is with my breathing technique. I had planned on doing some filming of myself underwater to see how many bubbles (if any) are being released on exhale. This had been a comment by Coach Gary Fahey last year. He had said that I seemed to be holding my lips together tightly and there was very little exhale. I had been making this a focal point, but I guess I need to intensify the effort. Unfortunately I have not been able to make it to the pool the last few days due to severe storms in my area. Florida is the lightning capital of the U.S. and I don't need to become a statistic. Hopefully the weather will improve by tomorrow.

Coach Dave also suggested swimming longer distances with the snorkel to get my conditioning up. I have to admit that in addition to swimming, I use to do a lot more exercise in the gym and outside. I have gotten a wee bit lazy as I age and when I read posts by Grant and other older swimmers, I am a little ashamed of my lack of effort.

Anyway, thanks to all who contributed and give me a few weeks to try all this out and I will report back how things are going.

Sherry
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  #22  
Old 04-30-2015
s.sciame s.sciame is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sclim View Post
Oh yeah, I fully agree with you that the issue is likely two-fold -- tensing up the chest and not breathing out completely. So the trick is for her to get somehow to the mental zone of exhaling freely, fully and without tension while full stroke swimming, similarly to how she is doing it while walking and while snorkel swimming.
Agree. I guess you inadvertently wrote these words in my quote :)

Funny, I'm the complete physiological opposite -- a total sinker, and yet I think I have the same psychological problem -- i don't think I'm exhaling fully, having practiced holding in air for buoyancy for so long that I'm having trouble unlearning it :)

I'd like to take advantage of these words to add that I guess 2 common reasons for not exhaling properly are:

1) psychological, as you say: many of us in our childhood were taught by our parents to hold the breath (not to exhale) when submerging the head.

2) late breathing: if you finish to exhale late, ie when your mouth is already above the water, you are left with less time to breathe in. Then, When you turn your head again underwater, your body still wanted to breathe in some more, so you can't start exhaling seamlessly and you can't help but holding the breath

Regards,
Salvo
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  #23  
Old 05-01-2015
sclim sclim is offline
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Originally Posted by s.sciame View Post
Agree. I guess you inadvertently wrote these words in my quote :)

Funny, I'm the complete physiological opposite -- a total sinker, and yet I think I have the same psychological problem -- i don't think I'm exhaling fully, having practiced holding in air for buoyancy for so long that I'm having trouble unlearning it :)

I'd like to take advantage of these words to add that I guess 2 common reasons for not exhaling properly are:

1) psychological, as you say: many of us in our childhood were taught by our parents to hold the breath (not to exhale) when submerging the head.

2) late breathing: if you finish to exhale late, ie when your mouth is already above the water, you are left with less time to breathe in. Then, When you turn your head again underwater, your body still wanted to breathe in some more, so you can't start exhaling seamlessly and you can't help but holding the breath

Regards,
Salvo
These very likely are contributing factors/reasons for me. I'll try and observe the breathing process, and see if this is the case and reversible.

Oops, I suddenly realised what I did -- exactly like you said --

"Funny, I'm the complete physiological opposite -- a total sinker, and yet I think I have the same psychological problem -- i don't think I'm exhaling fully, having practiced holding in air for buoyancy for so long that I'm having trouble unlearning it :)" were MY words, but I typed them in the wrong area, and they ended up in your quotes -- sorry everyone, for the potential confusion.

Last edited by sclim : 05-06-2015 at 01:37 AM.
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  #24  
Old 05-01-2015
jenson1a jenson1a is offline
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Don't know about the rest of you, but it does seem that TI has a lot of caveats. For instance when I first started it seemed that the emphasis was on low spl. Shinji's video made it look so easy! I remember reading Terry's book (2004) once you obtained a good spl, never go beyond that. If you reached your desired spl and were not near the wall, then you glided to the wall.

Then we were warned never practice struggle. So after swimming a length or 2 and the going got a little rougher, an alarm went off in my head, DON'T PRACTICE STRUGGLE!

Next piece of advice was to use the TT. Along with that were pyramid practice sets, asymmetric practice sets, very slow tempos to cure balance problems, and then the need to use faster tempos beyond to what you were use to doing.

After that, there was a thread that seemed to make sense Gearing Practice, No TT. This seemed to follow Mat Hudson's blogs on aim for sl ease, the perfect 25, etc.


Next came the green zone based on height or wingspan and length of pool. Along with this was changing gears within your green zone. Now we had some variety in spl. and this seemed to make a little more sense. Along with this came the optimal spl and the optimal stroke length.

Regarding breathing, some posters advised to hold the breath and others said not to. Other posters said that the main cause of having problems with breathing was that the swimmer was not exhaling properly. then there was the suggestion to just take a bite of air when turning to breathe.

Anyway it seems that evolution is inevitable and necessary, but it sure is confusing. But I guess that is what makes it challenging and fun.

Sherry
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  #25  
Old 05-01-2015
CoachDavidShen CoachDavidShen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jenson1a View Post
Don't know about the rest of you, but it does seem that TI has a lot of caveats. For instance when I first started it seemed that the emphasis was on low spl. Shinji's video made it look so easy! I remember reading Terry's book (2004) once you obtained a good spl, never go beyond that. If you reached your desired spl and were not near the wall, then you glided to the wall.

Then we were warned never practice struggle. So after swimming a length or 2 and the going got a little rougher, an alarm went off in my head, DON'T PRACTICE STRUGGLE!

Next piece of advice was to use the TT. Along with that were pyramid practice sets, asymmetric practice sets, very slow tempos to cure balance problems, and then the need to use faster tempos beyond to what you were use to doing.

After that, there was a thread that seemed to make sense Gearing Practice, No TT. This seemed to follow Mat Hudson's blogs on aim for sl ease, the perfect 25, etc.


Next came the green zone based on height or wingspan and length of pool. Along with this was changing gears within your green zone. Now we had some variety in spl. and this seemed to make a little more sense. Along with this came the optimal spl and the optimal stroke length.

Regarding breathing, some posters advised to hold the breath and others said not to. Other posters said that the main cause of having problems with breathing was that the swimmer was not exhaling properly. then there was the suggestion to just take a bite of air when turning to breathe.

Anyway it seems that evolution is inevitable and necessary, but it sure is confusing. But I guess that is what makes it challenging and fun.

Sherry
sherry, yes there are a lot of things out there and it can be taken as a mish mash and be confusing. we also have changed much over the years and every year the information changes, but we have not published that info - if you had a TI coach you went to regularly, you would experience that change more clearly.

even swimming research has changed. i have a whole dropbox folder of stuff which shows how old information was disproved. but it's still be perpetuated out there and the openness of the internet doesn't help where pretty much you can find a post(s) to support any opinion and it looks like truth.

taking advice in the forums can be dicey sometimes. there are a lot of good advice and there is a lot of bad advice. there is also the difficulty of diagnosing problems via text. videos help more but are harder to post. when coaches post, i think you can trust the advice more, but it is still hard to give good solutions to problems presented as text.

everything you've said above may be used in a directed fashion against a swimmer. we have a lot in our bag of tricks to coax the proper swim form out of our clients. but not having a coach direct the use of this info can make things challenging. i think you could say the same for learning any new sport.

i think the key here is to realize that information is not static and what is said today may not be what we say tomorrow. this is not like math where 1+1=2 no matter what year it is. we refine the info as we learn more and overall it gets better.

Dave
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  #26  
Old 05-01-2015
mjm mjm is offline
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Sherry: you sure know how to complicate stuff.

1. If you swim at a "slow" stroke rate (e.g. 1 stroke every 1.4 seconds) and breathe every 2 strokes, you are taking about 20 breaths per minute. If you speed up to 1 stroke every second you are taking 30 breaths per minute. So SPEED up your stroke rate to get more air.

2. If you want to continue at a 1.4 stroke rate stay on your side longer, keep your head turned and take as long as you like to breathe. It used to be called "sweet spot" breathing. Take a "sweet spot" break and resume swimming.

3. Sun Yang sometimes takes a breathe EVERY stroke just before he turns. He set a world record. Takes a little practice but why not try it.

Best regards. Mike
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  #27  
Old 05-02-2015
jenson1a jenson1a is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjm View Post
Sherry: you sure know how to complicate stuff.

1. If you swim at a "slow" stroke rate (e.g. 1 stroke every 1.4 seconds) and breathe every 2 strokes, you are taking about 20 breaths per minute. If you speed up to 1 stroke every second you are taking 30 breaths per minute. So SPEED up your stroke rate to get more air.

2. If you want to continue at a 1.4 stroke rate stay on your side longer, keep your head turned and take as long as you like to breathe. It used to be called "sweet spot" breathing. Take a "sweet spot" break and resume swimming.

3. Sun Yang sometimes takes a breathe EVERY stroke just before he turns. He set a world record. Takes a little practice but why not try it.

Best regards. Mike
You sure know how to sweet talk a gal! Anyway you are right about the breaths per minute. But if my breathing technique isn't very good, it doesn't matter how many breaths I can take per minute.

Sherry
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  #28  
Old 05-03-2015
lloyddinma lloyddinma is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachDavidShen View Post
sherry, yes there are a lot of things out there and it can be taken as a mish mash and be confusing. we also have changed much over the years and every year the information changes, but we have not published that info - if you had a TI coach you went to regularly, you would experience that change more clearly.

even swimming research has changed. i have a whole dropbox folder of stuff which shows how old information was disproved. but it's still be perpetuated out there and the openness of the internet doesn't help where pretty much you can find a post(s) to support any opinion and it looks like truth.

taking advice in the forums can be dicey sometimes. there are a lot of good advice and there is a lot of bad advice. there is also the difficulty of diagnosing problems via text. videos help more but are harder to post. when coaches post, i think you can trust the advice more, but it is still hard to give good solutions to problems presented as text.

everything you've said above may be used in a directed fashion against a swimmer. we have a lot in our bag of tricks to coax the proper swim form out of our clients. but not having a coach direct the use of this info can make things challenging. i think you could say the same for learning any new sport.

i think the key here is to realize that information is not static and what is said today may not be what we say tomorrow. this is not like math where 1+1=2 no matter what year it is. we refine the info as we learn more and overall it gets better.

Dave
Dave, I think it is safe to say that the core TI template has remained intact. I agree it is beneficial to see it as less of a religion. Interestingly, even math is not static. Every now and then they do stuff like revamp or construct theorems

Maybe llike in other disciplines, the dilemma comes from low willingness to question new or even old information. A minute instance would be muscularity.

The general consensus here is along the lines that being muscular is a drawback. However, I am a little curious to find out the impact on a swimmer who intensely develops the pectoral(chest) region on seesaw equilibrium and performance. l wonder if it could afford a longer stroke.
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  #29  
Old 05-03-2015
Tom Pamperin Tom Pamperin is offline
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Originally Posted by lloyddinma View Post
The general consensus here is along the lines that being muscular is a drawback.
That's not my perception of the consensus at all--maintaining muscle mass is essential to good active health, and many of us (myself included) would benefit from more lean body mass (with its typical accompanying lower percentage of body fat).

But, I do think the consensus is that swimmers almost always benefit more (faster speeds, reduced efforts) by focusing on reducing drag and improving balance rather than on increasing power. Watching the many ultra-fit triathletes in my pool who have yet to embrace TI, I'm pretty sure that part of the TI consensus is absolutely correct.
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  #30  
Old 05-03-2015
lloyddinma lloyddinma is offline
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Sorry, when I said "here" I meant it as "here on the subject." Not TI.

I think I may have even read a thread or blog by Coach Matt Hudson that affirmed muscle was good if it was applicable.

Thanks.
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Stillness is the greatest revelation.
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The light of the body is the eye.
-- J. Ch__st.
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