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  #11  
Old 04-28-2015
jenson1a jenson1a is offline
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Originally Posted by lloyddinma View Post
Hi. Started swimming ever in June 2014 On TI. To the point, there is an exercise that trains you to exhale properly. Found it online.

Inhale and sink to pool bottom on knees.Then exhale gradually as you ascend back up. This I have been doing as a warm-up in case I regress back to holding my exhalation.
Tried your suggestion, but did not work out. First my pool I swim in is only 5 feet deep. Second I am a floater. I tried doing what you suggested in the 5 ft depth and I couldn't even make it to the bottom. I popped up midway on descent like an old cork! My thought on this is maybe I am holding too much air in lungs than necessary. Try as I might tho, I have tried to exhale as long as possible, but still will not sink. When I was a kid and taking swim lessons at a local Y, I could not sit on bottom of pool no matter how hard I tried.

But thanks for taking the time to post.

Sherry
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  #12  
Old 04-28-2015
jenson1a jenson1a is offline
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Terry

Thanks for posting that TI-PRE Scale.

I know that heart rate monitors can be unreliable, but when I was taking mine manually, I was getting some rate of consistency in beginning hr and ending hr. At least I knew if my beginning hr was down, I was probably sufficiently rested.

Unfortunately I don't have the level of self awareness that you have, wish I did, but I don't. I am trying to work on that however. Need more self discipline.

At this point I think I need to concentrate on PRE level 1. Need to improve my stroke technique and trying to follow the example of Tom and sclim in their practices.

Tks for posting

Sherry
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  #13  
Old 04-28-2015
jenson1a jenson1a is offline
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Zenturtle

You posted this a few days ago.

Lately I experimented a bit with exagerating the hurried intake and slow exhale.
Just take more air in than you need and also at a faster rate.
Best to start this with an easy, stroke like breaststroke. Gradually demish the time your mouth is above water to take a breath and dont let the breathing disrupt the flow of the stroke.
Can you stay relaxed while there is less and less time to get a breath?
After a while it becomes a habit to breathe in the limited available time window, you realise you have plenty air and the assosiation with panick breathing also deminishes.
When going back from exagerated fast and big inhaling actions to normal ones, the normal ones feel pretty relaxed.


Even tho I knew my breast stroke was really bad, I tried your suggestion. My timing with the kick and fwd motion of hands was terrible. Needless to say I didn't get much out of this.

I guess I will have to try your suggestion while doing fs or do you have any other suggestions?

Sherry
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  #14  
Old 04-28-2015
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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You could try. Or other tips that have passed in the various breathing topics.
I only learned breaststroke as a kid, so that stroke is still the most comfortable for me.
Bobbing up and down while taking a quick breath and staying relaxed does the same.
Or swim easy slow FS. Should be possible with your buoyancy.
Or try a snorkel and see if that makes an easy swim more sustainable.
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  #15  
Old 04-28-2015
CoachDavidShen CoachDavidShen is offline
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hey Sherry,

Thought I'd chime in. I thought i saw you post your age in another post, something like 70? If i use the calculation via age on this page:

http://www.brianmac.co.uk/maxhr.htm

for women, and for the running sport, that works out to be a max HR of 140 or 144. If i use your result of 120 relative to 140 or 144, that is 86% to 83% respectively. Either of those results puts you in the hard effort range. However, age based formulas can be inaccurate, but it does give you one possible view of your performance.

as Terry says, those of us who have used HR monitors for a while typically move to an Ratings of Perceived Exertion model pretty quickly as training/racing by HR can have problems. It is better to train a lot and get to know your RPE at certain paces so that you can self-regulate without looking at your HR watch. While swimming, that's really unproductive. You can try the FINIS swimming HR monitor which clips to your ear lobe and you can hear it announce the HR at regular intervals but i have not found it to be worth the trouble.

after reading the responses, my sense is that you are not accustomed to spending time exerting at this level. this can be a mental and physical thing. by mental i mean that you hit this exertion and want to back off because it feels uncomfortable, or you have not built the mental capability to maintain this effort over time. by physical, i mean that your body may not be conditioned to physical exertion at this level and then your body starts telling you to stop, and you stop.

we've talked about breathing. we've talked about TI's mantra of relaxing and having comfort in the water. it may be time to start looking at your mental and physical conditioning to swim continuously for longer distances and periods of time.

now having said all that, i do not know your current abilities and physical make up. it could be problematic on this forum to say - just swim longer and deal with it and eventually you'll get used to it. i would encourage you to continue tackling this all fronts - make sure you are breathing properly and taking in large breaths - if you're taking shallow breaths, you'll eventually go into an oxygen deficit and nobody can sustain that. make sure you have max comfort in the water - are there any times when you don't feel good and you feel agitated? work on those technique wise. if you've fixed all the breathing and technique issues and you still have problems sustaining distance, then it is most likely mental and physical conditioning that needs to be improved.

one last note - your experiment with the snorkel leads me to think that breathing is the main issue with this. you can take in more air with the snorkel so RPE is less. so how can you take in more air without the snorkel? make sure you take quick, deep breaths as soon as you mouth is exposed to air. make sure you have max comfort turning to air and that you're not reaching for air with your head nor have dropped hips, which doesn't sound like your issue. if you like, swim longer with the snorkel and get your conditioning up. if you can swim a distance with the snorkel but you cannot without it, then we know for sure that breathing without the snorkel is the issue.

good luck and report back!
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  #16  
Old 04-28-2015
s.sciame s.sciame is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jenson1a View Post
Second I am a floater. I tried doing what you suggested in the 5 ft depth and I couldn't even make it to the bottom. I popped up midway on descent like an old cork! My thought on this is maybe I am holding too much air in lungs than necessary. Try as I might tho, I have tried to exhale as long as possible, but still will not sink. When I was a kid and taking swim lessons at a local Y, I could not sit on bottom of pool no matter how hard I tried.
Hi Sherry, according to the snorkel test and to what you report here, imho you need exhalation/sinking drills more than anything else. Google it and you'll find a lot of advise on how to do it. If you really relax and let go of yourself while exhaling, you should be able to make it to the bottom.
Until you don't own this, I wouldn't worry about anything else.

Cheers,
Salvo
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  #17  
Old 04-29-2015
sclim sclim is offline
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Originally Posted by s.sciame View Post
Hi Sherry, according to the snorkel test and to what you report here, imho you need exhalation/sinking drills more than anything else. Google it and you'll find a lot of advise on how to do it. If you really relax and let go of yourself while exhaling, you should be able to make it to the bottom.
Until you don't own this, I wouldn't worry about anything else.


Cheers,
Salvo
At the risk of seeming to pile on to poor old Sherry, I would point out the possibility that Sherry may actually be so buoyant that, even at full forceful exhalation, she may be still unable to force herself down against her innate buoyancy (unless she straps on SCUBA lead weights or something like that.)

So putting the onus on her to exhale forcefully until she is lying on the bottom may be just stressing her unnecessarily.
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  #18  
Old 04-29-2015
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CoachStuartMcDougal CoachStuartMcDougal is offline
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We always do the buoyancy test at the beginning of workshops (and any swimmer coming in to my masters group), primarily to identify if we have any "true sinkers".

Roughly 2% of students (all have been guys) sink to the bottom with full tank of air; typically very lean/muscular and have difficulty letting go of tension. Heading to the bottom of the pool certainly doesn't help relieve tension either.

A much larger percentage students, 30% or more (all female), like Sherry, bob effortlessly on the surface, and just can't sink after emptying all of their air in lungs.

Stuart
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  #19  
Old 04-29-2015
s.sciame s.sciame is offline
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Originally Posted by sclim View Post
At the risk of seeming to pile on to poor old Sherry, I would point out the possibility that Sherry may actually be so buoyant that, even at full forceful exhalation, she may be still unable to force herself down against her innate buoyancy (unless she straps on SCUBA lead weights or something like that.)

So putting the onus on her to exhale forcefully until she is lying on the bottom may be just stressing her unnecessarily.
Ok, but consider also this: I asked her to swim 2 or more lengths with a snorkel and see what happens to her hr (compared to normal swimming). She did the test and noticed that in snorkel mode "PRE went down substantially. Heart rate down as well as breathing rate."

Remove the snorkel and hr goes up again. It's clear that this is a breathing issue. And I'm pretty sure that when she swims w/o snorkel she's not exhaling properly (ie she rapidly builds CO2).

As for the sinking drill, I didn't say to exhale forcefully - this is stressing and doesn't work. I instead suggested to relax and let go of herself while exhaling, just like when you let yourself fall on a sofa or a bed. The key is not to exhale forcefully but just let the air out and wait: at first you may sink up to a point and stop, but if you keep calm and continue exhaling without forcing anything, chances are that you start sinking again to a point you never hit in the past.

Cheers,
Salvo
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  #20  
Old 04-30-2015
sclim sclim is offline
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Originally Posted by s.sciame View Post
Ok, but consider also this: I asked her to swim 2 or more lengths with a snorkel and see what happens to her hr (compared to normal swimming). She did the test and noticed that in snorkel mode "PRE went down substantially. Heart rate down as well as breathing rate."

Remove the snorkel and hr goes up again. It's clear that this is a breathing issue. And I'm pretty sure that when she swims w/o snorkel she's not exhaling properly (ie she rapidly builds CO2).

As for the sinking drill, I didn't say to exhale forcefully - this is stressing and doesn't work. I instead suggested to relax and let go of herself while exhaling, just like when you let yourself fall on a sofa or a bed. The key is not to exhale forcefully but just let the air out and wait: at first you may sink up to a point and stop, but if you keep calm and continue exhaling without forcing anything, chances are that you start sinking again to a point you never hit in the past.

{EDIT by sclim: I'm trying to fix this without covering the tracks for anyone who read it before and trying to remember who said what -- I inadvertently typed these words within s.sciame's quote box; these are actually MY words...
Funny, I'm the complete physiological opposite -- a total sinker, and yet I think I have the same psychological problem -- i don't think I'm exhaling fully, having practiced holding in air for buoyancy for so long that I'm having trouble unlearning it :) ...sclim}

Cheers,
Salvo
Oh yeah, I fully agree with you that the issue is likely two-fold -- tensing up the chest and not breathing out completely. So the trick is for her to get somehow to the mental zone of exhaling freely, fully and without tension while full stroke swimming, similarly to how she is doing it while walking and while snorkel swimming.

Last edited by sclim : 05-01-2015 at 02:46 AM.
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