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  #1  
Old 03-24-2015
jenson1a jenson1a is offline
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Default More questions on hip drive/rotation

Yesterday I filmed myself (underwater shots) and as I swam the length of the pool and back, I had a very unflattering view of what I looked like from the back. It seems that I roll a lot, very slowly, from side to side. More movement is lateral than forward. How do I correct this?

I saw a video on hip drive by Coco Lipinski. One of the comments she made was to rotate your hips and not twist them. How do you differentiate from a twist to rotating?

I know that I am not the only one having this problem--I have seen it on some videos posted by other swimmers here. Is the solution just to swim on wide tracks? I have tried this, but it didn't seem to help.

Is the hip nudge (or drive) more of a forward motion? Sort of like the exercise where you stand next to a wall and reach up with one hand. Then you turn the hip slightly and you gain a few inches in your reach.

Do I need to rotate hips and make an effort to keep legs still while the torso is rotating?

If the problem is caused just by over rotation, what drills can I do to correct this?


any comments would be appreciated

Sherry
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  #2  
Old 03-24-2015
fooboo fooboo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jenson1a View Post
One of the comments she made was to rotate your hips and not twist them.
Hips should rotate with the rest of the body. Gravity makes the job
done. Core is the better word.
Quote:
Do I need to rotate hips and make an effort to keep legs still while the torso is rotating?
I might not be the best adviser, but would try.
Imagine yourself in a position at least drag prone. Horizontal.
Arm extended, holding the water. Stretched from hand to foot.
When you move, you move as a whole. From position I mentioned
before, there must be a recovery. On the side, you move elbow up
and forearm relaxed. It goes forward, hand finds mail slot and fore-
arm follows. When about elbow deep, you rotate. How? Not hip.
The core, where it is not an organ, but whole from torso to knees.
Abdomen and thorax have to be as one, just as you stand still.
Legs are not separated from the rest of body, but participate. You
kick at time, when you have to finish rotation and go forward.
I'm not sure what you do with anchoring arm. I advise you to try
vertical forearm, since I consider it necessary.
My experience is that I have to do all this in one single step. Not
as members, that should be connected. Just one movement. Then
I could say I swim TI way. Delay rotation, till you enter forearm deep
and you will rotate without thinking.
I might be wrong, of course. Hope I help.
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  #3  
Old 03-25-2015
jenson1a jenson1a is offline
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Thanks for the detailed explanation FooBoo

I may not have stated my question clearly enough though. Part of the issue is when you film yourself swimming. If you position the camera to film your self swimming the length of the pool and back, the first length only takes a picture of your legs and butt. This is the part I am questioning. It seems that my legs rotate up and down on a pretty steep angle. When I come back on the second length, I get a view of my head position, am I doing FQ swimming (patient lead hand), is my head lifting rather than turning when breathing, and am I keeping wide tracks when stroking?

So, regarding the first length, is it worth keeping? Haven't seen too many videos of swimmers from the back end so I am not sure if what I am doing is correct.

Kind of like when Talvi posted a video of himself swimming in a lake. All shots were above the water line, but when he got some video of underwater shots, it was a different ballgame.

Sherry
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  #4  
Old 03-25-2015
mjm mjm is offline
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mjm
Default Lateral Sway vs. Rotation

Sherry: this might have been the last time you posted video: http://totalimmersion.net/forum/showthread.php?t=7195

Your TI coach wrote: Regarding the rocking from side to side, I did receive an email from my coach. His take on this:

There two things that I think are contributing to some lateral sway, and not the usual suspects:
1. The deep and wide catch, particularly in the back half of your stroke. I think if you sweep closer to your belly you'll maintain better stability. I find that when I mimic the deep catch that my legs start to sink during the rear half of the stroke. I've attached a front view of Ian Thorpe, and you'll see how close he sweeps through the back end. See pictures below.

2. I also think you're a bit 'lax' as far as committing to peak extension. Review Shinji's main video and pause during the underwater phase when he hits peak extension. There is a firmness in his posture created by that extended quality from lats/shoulder out to wrist. I've attached a quick pic of that moment here.

How is it going with the head/lateral sway, the deep, wide catch and the peak extension? Did you see differences in your most recent video? Mike
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Jenson1a.jpg (10.2 KB, 16 views)
File Type: jpg Ian Thorpe.jpg (13.4 KB, 16 views)
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  #5  
Old 03-26-2015
jenson1a jenson1a is offline
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Thanks for the reminder. Can't believe that it is almost a year since I had that lesson with a TI coach.

Regarding the deep wide catch--I have been working a lot with trying to get a shallower catch and more bending of the elbow underwater rather than the straight arm pull as shown in the picture you posted. It is getting better--spl hasn't gone down but times on 2 lengths are improving. Still don't look like the pic of Ian! Imagine that!

Took some advice from another TI poster--after warming up, I swim 20 lengths with these focal points--head down, wide tracks, patient lead hand, left side breathing, etc. Change focal points every 4 lengths. Need to do more emphasis on the head not bobbing around.

To be truthful with you, I had forgotten about Gary Faheys's advice about the streamlining (point #2). Thanks for the reminder.

I really need to put more emphasis on these issues. I have been at a plateau of 18 spl for a long time and do need to improve my technique. the problem with me is that I am an avid reader of these forums and every time that something grabs my interest, I feel that I have to try it--even tho I might not be at that level yet.

Thanks for bringing me back to reality

Sherry
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  #6  
Old 03-26-2015
mjm mjm is offline
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mjm
Default Tinkerer

Sherry: it IS easy to become a tinkerer: watch You Tube videos, read forums, embrace the latest focal point. Yet you got the best feedback from a super TI coach, Gary Fahey. Isn't he the same guy in this video?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LqqNO3WYZ0

My video showed my head (like yours) followed my stroking arm and moved side to side. Can you imagine how slow a kayak would move if the front tacked left and right on every stroke?

This is what worked for me: I got a Finis snorkel and use it almost every swim to:
--keep my head STILL
--extend while rotating side to side
--keep my torso TAUT.

I only swim 4-5 laps with the snorkel. Then I take it off and remember how swimming with the snorkel FELT. I am NOT saying to myself hand do this or head do that. If you think you stink.

With all that said, I would go back to your TI coach in a heartbeat. Good Luck. Mike
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  #7  
Old 03-26-2015
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jenson1a View Post
...Kind of like when Talvi posted a video of himself swimming in a lake. All shots were above the water line, but when he got some video of underwater shots, it was a different ballgame.
RofLoL gee thanks Sherry!! :D So, when are you posting that rear end video?! ;)

I share your frustrations, as you know. I think the problem is not so much in finding things that are wrong as finding what it is that'll make things better, rather than just rearranging the deckchairs. Or that's my experience: plus ca change plus c'est la meme chose.

Coach Stuart posted something that may be an answer to this: I'm calling it the "rosary" approach for want of a better label! It's here: http://totalimmersion.net/forum/show...7&postcount=85

Another post of his in the same thread on this: http://totalimmersion.net/forum/show...2&postcount=80

I think you're looking good but I can offer no insight as to why your wheels are spinning. Hope Stuart's advice is helpful.

Robin
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A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
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"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
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  #8  
Old 03-27-2015
jenson1a jenson1a is offline
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Hey Talvi

Didn't mean to poke fun at you, but you yourself said that the underwater shots of you were very revealing as far as what to work on.

I think that Mike hit the nail on the head. I had taken a lesson with Gary Fahey almost one year ago and there was so much crammed into one lesson, that I kind of lost tract of how many things to work on. Also in some respects I do tend to get side-tracked by so many interesting ways to do things on these forums and I ignore what really pertains to what I am capable of.

The other thing is that there do not seem to be too many TI coaches. In my case, Gary is about a 2 hour drive from my house. Not far you might say, but last year I scheduled a lesson in the beginning of our rainy season. Lesson was scheduled early in the morning. That meant going the day before the scheduled lesson and staying in a motel. More money! Also my husband needed to go with as the drive is across Florida's Alligator Alley. Not a good place to get stranded if it happened. Further more hubby is not a morning person and was pretty grumpy to say the least. But I digress.

Trying to see how I can wheedle another lesson. Won't be easy.

Sherry
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  #9  
Old 03-27-2015
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jenson1a View Post
Didn't mean to poke fun at you, but you yourself said that the underwater shots of you were very revealing as far as what to work on.
:D I know, but I notice you didn't say when your vid might go public! ;)

Did you follow those links to Coach Stuart's posts?

Getting the rear-angle seems a good idea to me. I've not seen one before. I imagine it would provide an unflattering perspective, the kick being where all the problems seem to culminate, but still, lots of feedback?

Two hours sounds like a serious enough drive to me. With your morning start I could see it pretty much wiping out the whole day. You are motivated. And you got a lot from it I understand.

TI coaches simply don't exist here though there is growing interest. When I started two or so years ago there was nobody doing it. Now I suspect a fair few of those I see are.

I tried to get the local coach to give me a session once and lent her the PMF DVD by way of an explanation for my odd approach. Her response was simply: "Nothing new there.". I'm thinking I should ask her again. Maybe even an hour every couple of weeks would be a significant help. Before I didn't want to get into a tangle but what's there to lose? Time marches on!
__________________
A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
~ George Kelly

"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov
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  #10  
Old 03-27-2015
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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I go with MJN, its a combination of reaching for air and loosing core connection.
You are not really comfortable in the water. You are afraid off letting the upperbody and haed sink in the water.
I say start again with a floating supported feeling and go for the snorkel to stay relaxed, Swim slow and concentrate on the supported feel of the water while adding some swimming movements.
Next the absence of kick.
I also have a tendency to mimimalize kicking until the core almost shuts down.
Best to always have the kick going whatever you are doing with the rest of the body.
Not a violent kick, but just enough to feel the legs are still there and helping body rotation.
If you do a bit of kicking there always is some tension through the core that keeps you straight and taut.
I think your 2 beat kick has a bit too much do-nothing time now, where the body is just unbalanced and looks lost for things to do.
You could start a gentle 6BK ar pushoff and deminish it until a 2BK along the lenght, while keeping the connected driving action on the main kicks.
There are some hills to climb over now, but nothing that will not permit a nice stroke in the future.
Balance will not be a problem. Certainly not if you let the upperbody sink in line, stretch out and take your time before pulling backwards,

Last edited by Zenturtle : 03-27-2015 at 09:59 PM.
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