Total Immersion Forums  

Go Back   Total Immersion Forums > Freestyle
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 02-11-2015
jenson1a jenson1a is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Southwest Florida
Posts: 671
jenson1a
Default Breathing and Timing

The thread titled Breathing Patterns and Speed was started by Truwani. Since I had been working on breathing patterns to try and find a pattern that would leave me less winded after doing only 1 or 2 lengths. I felt that the questions I was asking didn't exactly fit that thread, so here are my questions.

There is a thread in the H20 forum titled getting out of breath, still. There was one post by a person called madvet. It was later answered by Coach Suzanne and I have copied those 2 posts below.

Copach Suzanne

This is the post by you that I was referring to in my former post in this thread



Quote:


Originally Posted by madvet View Post

3) Inhale when your arms aren't actively pulling -- you can't open your chest, while your back and chest muscles are working to close your chest.


This was Coach Suzanne's comments

Except that a) you can and b) breathing is primarily driven by the diaphragm...I think this is a red herring that just cropped up last week when someone linked to another site and wondered if the diaphragm was the answer?

The reason not to breath while pulling is that the timing is wrong. When breathing, the lead arm should still be extended, and the opposite arm in some phase of recovery...no contaction of back or chest muscles is needed adn the body should be relaxed.
__________________
Suzanne Atkinson, MD
Steel City Endurance, LTD
Pittsburgh, PA

Total Immersion Swim Coaching, Triathlon and Bicycle Training in Pittsburgh, PA



I didn't know if I was breathing while pulling, so when I went to the pool I paid close attention if that were the case. I had read that when breathing, you should breathe early, so that is what I did. I actually turned my head and breathed the whole while I was pulling. Did not want to see my hand recover as several coaches said that this was too late.

Anyway, if you shouldn't breathe while stroking, just where do you start? Can't be when you spear because you are in a flat position and if you wait too long, you will see your hand recover.

The only thing I tried was to turn my head in the pull phase and slowly but steadily exhale underwater. Then when my thumb touched my thigh, I took a quick breath. Seemed like this worked

Would like some thoughts on this and hope I am doing the right thing. It did feel right and I was not breathless after 1 or 2 lengths. But I have been lulled into a brief complacency before!

If I am going down the wrong road, I would like to know.

Sherry
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 02-11-2015
kurb kurb is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 31
kurb
Default

Suggest:
Breathing is timed to the rotation of your core.
As one reference, your core is timed to hand entry
Normally when you are not breathing your head is neutral and not locked to your core.
So, if you breathe on your left, then when your right hand enters water, you lock your head to your core and rotate head as one
That rotation of your head/core takes your mouth towards air, then moving your mouth to your shoulder gives extra reach to air
When your left and enters water your core rotates your head back, depositing it at your neutral head position.
You breathe as soon as your rotated core allows you to (and your right spear arm should already be positioned to stabilise your breathing). Your maximum reach is when you are fully rotated.
Reference: Watch your recovery arm with the one eye that's above the water
You're done breathing before the hand of the recovery arm enters water

Do some strokes with the head roll, but no breathing. During these strokes develop your sense for timing. Can you tell where your mouth is when: a) your right hand enters the water b) when you're just fully extended with your spear/pulling arms c) when you are watching with your one eye your dangling recovery hand when it reaches your shoulder d) when your right hand enters the water
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 02-11-2015
CoachStuartMcDougal's Avatar
CoachStuartMcDougal CoachStuartMcDougal is offline
coach
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,353
CoachStuartMcDougal
Default

Hi Sherry,

I think you're making it overly complicated with thinking of too many pieces moving in order to breathe. Suzanne is absolutely spot on, don't pull to breathe; the timing is off and late. But for many swimmers, the (human) instinct to pull and lift head to breathe is all too common and interrupts the stroke cycle turning them into a barge after getting air.

Simplify the process by allowing the shoulders (torso) to do the timing, don't think of turning the head at some part of your stroking arms. Think chin follows (not pushes) shoulder to air - this allows you to get air early. The next thing is to inhale quickly, no exhale/inhale while nose/mouth are above the surface. Return head to neutral (goggles down) after inhale. If you see your recovery arm move past your goggles when rolling to breathe - it's too long and/or late and you only will find more water than air.

Keep it simple, empty lungs as chin follows shoulder to air, quick inhale and return your head to goggles down. No need to think about where arms and/legs are when rolling to breathe.

Good luck!

Stuart
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 02-11-2015
sclim sclim is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,499
sclim
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal View Post
Hi Sherry,

I think you're making it overly complicated with thinking of too many pieces moving in order to breathe.

If you see your recovery arm move past your goggles when rolling to breathe - it's too long and/or late and you only will find more water than air.

Keep it simple, empty lungs as chin follows shoulder to air, quick inhale and return your head to goggles down. No need to think about where arms and/legs are when rolling to breathe.
Sorry, but despite your advice to keep it simple, I think you can't help but introduce at least a veneer of complexity with the 2nd reference point idea. Maybe only to check that you have breathed early enough, not to see the recovery arm moving past the goggles while still breathing, I mean, after trying to keep it simple. Perhaps one can still keep it simple while executing, and then when comfortable with the flow of things, introduce a bit of complexity to do the visual check, without screwing up the essentially simple idea.

I'm following this carefully, because I'm having exactly the same problem.

Last edited by sclim : 02-11-2015 at 11:04 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 02-11-2015
borate borate is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 533
borate
Default

There are many ways to visualize an action. Here's but one.

Simultaneously...
When the elbow lifts the recovering hand the forearm will zip up along the torso as if pulling the corresponding hip towards the surface. The opposite arm is at its fullest extension.

At the start of this recovery, about the time the hand exits, a quick inhale is taken with mouth facing slightly rearward. Lips can be pursed (Popeye style).

Once the recovery arm is in forward motion, the body will be rotating in the opposite direction. It's too late for a breath. Exhale can begin, as the head returns to its neutral, downward facing position.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 02-12-2015
daveblt daveblt is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 820
daveblt
Default

I have read through this post a couple times and want to clarify . When one arm is extended and the other hand is just getting ready to enter the water is the time when YOU START your roll to the air . The actual time when YOU START to get your air is approx. at the end of your pull and beginning of recovery and until that recovered arm is just before your goggles and then your face returns to the water .At least that's how I've always done it after swimming TI for the past 19 years or so.

Dave
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 02-12-2015
CoachStuartMcDougal's Avatar
CoachStuartMcDougal CoachStuartMcDougal is offline
coach
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,353
CoachStuartMcDougal
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sclim View Post
Sorry, but despite your advice to keep it simple, I think you can't help but introduce at least a veneer of complexity with the 2nd reference point idea. Maybe only to check that you have breathed early enough, not to see the recovery arm moving past the goggles while still breathing, I mean, after trying to keep it simple. Perhaps one can still keep it simple while executing, and then when comfortable with the flow of things, introduce a bit of complexity to do the visual check, without screwing up the essentially simple idea.

I'm following this carefully, because I'm having exactly the same problem.
Hi Sclim, noticing the recovery arm pass by your goggles is only a visual "cue" that the breath is late or too long. It's not part of the timing of the breath. Chin follows shoulder to air, inhale quick is the only timing that you need to think about.

I put together a coach blog on breathing a couple of months ago that may be helpful: Breathing, it's Overrated

Stuart
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 02-12-2015
sclim sclim is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,499
sclim
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal View Post
Hi Sclim, noticing the recovery arm pass by your goggles is only a visual "cue" that the breath is late or too long. It's not part of the timing of the breath. Chin follows shoulder to air, inhale quick is the only timing that you need to think about.

I put together a coach blog on breathing a couple of months ago that may be helpful: Breathing, it's Overrated

Stuart
Yeah, actually as I tried to transcribe my convoluted thought process into words, the logic of your above statement suddenly became apparent. It's a subtle difference, but a significant one. It's a visual check after the fact, if you will. Looking at the road map after you've got there, not while driving.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 02-12-2015
sclim sclim is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,499
sclim
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal View Post
I put together a coach blog on breathing a couple of months ago that may be helpful: Breathing, it's Overrated

Stuart
OK. That's it. This has got to be my next intensive focus. I've actually read this blog before, as well as the TI "Nodding Drill" and found them both very useful, but applied them only as hard as I could at the time to get me from "lurch to the sky" breathing to "quite a bit improved" breathing. At the time I was satisfied with this great progress. But I now realise I have not progressed any further, and the remaining imperfections (bobbing, and inconsistency one breathing stroke to the next, as well as breathing to non-breathing stroke) and left right asymmetry are really annoying me. Time for a new round of really detailed application.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 02-12-2015
junkman junkman is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 54
junkman
Default

I've always been more comfortable breathing to the left. What's helping learn bilateral is to notice my lead hand position and begin an exhale. So...Right side breath is next, right hand is currently leading and I'm exhaling (at least a little).

Right arm begins stroke when left is ready to enter. Process is: head turns to follow shoulder, only 1 eye out, open mouth when air available (don't choke water), quick turn eyes back down. Go 3 strokes repeat breath on other side. Concentrate on roll & not lifting shoulder or head. Body as close to straight above black line as possible with no lateral movement. Ankles close together unless cocking for kick.

Try extending to 4 strokes some times. Breath at 2 strokes if short on air.

Relax. Take 2-3 breaths at end to access & regroup. Start superman, align head, stroke, notice lead hand, begin exhale....continue.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are Off
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 09:50 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.