Weight on catch in a long stroke

[daveblt]

Originally Posted by Mushroomfloat

"extend to the elbow and not the hand"

"keeping the hand & forearm loose in fromt of the elbow gives a nice high body position as the balse whips through"

v

Yep, and as I always say enter pinky down will also help keep the arm free of tension.

Dave

[daveblt]

Originally Posted by Zenturtle

What i find interesting is the typical dropped elbow and the broken wrist you see a lot, but not always with the almost catchup timing.

Here a TI swimmer who loads the low side just like in a more standard swimstroke, but dont sinks the arm into a catch shape with it, she just holds the arm firnly pointing forward, while still rolling that high shoulder on top of it. The arm only sinks a tiny tiny bit before power is fed in, but less than usual. ( The loading is most obvious in the front view.)
The rhytm is there, looks like sheilas loading and lengtening too, only not a super high elbow, more straight, but looks pretty smooth underwater.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpxruDf3ld0

I liked her style before, but now i can see better why. Still think she will be more efficient if she goes to catch a few tenths of a second earlier.

contrast that with this swimmer, who has zero load on catch I think.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NA2YtVdKiZI

It seems to me a large difference is the differnce in tone of the lower body from knees to elbow.(and not setting up catch etc bla bla)
This swimmrs low side is too relaxed. It looks sloppy. Also again that tendency for dropped elbow and broken wrist, when he snaps out his relaxation.
Cant be too relaxed in body tone sadly. There is no ground foundation, so the core has to be built as a foundation. That takes some semi static muscle tone and certain actions on top of that semi static toned vessel.
Wish it was differnt, but sorry, thats required. Just like you need tone to walk with good posture, Cant totally relax all those muscles....
When the timing is perfect you need les tension, but some is always required, only swimmers dont feel it anymore, just like you dont feel anymore the muscle action thats needed to be able to walk.
But watch 80 plus year olds walk, doesnt work so well anymore. Muscle action starts to drop below minimum effort level required.

The second video looks a little like Shinji's stroke ?

Dave

[Zenturtle]

Yeah, I think he could be if he was more precise and mentally/physically active/ ontime.
His recovery and easy balance line looks like Shinji. A bit the same physical makeup I guess. Shinjis brother who smoked pot before his swim?

Maybe its just 2 differnt styles. Traci makes a rigid underwater extension,This is not a totally weightless arm on entering and extension. I think there is a little pressure under that arm, (weight on catch) also to feel the transition to catch better and forcing yourself to be right on top of the game.
Her balance is a bit on the edge front to back, she has to kick a bit energetic. Comes from a swimming background probably.

The other approach is to have a totally weightless arm,or even weight of the oncoming water on the arms top side, and that is triggering more the relax attitude, which maybe also gives a bit too much relaxation. That approach is TI I believe, so its also a matter of preference to a point, depending how fast you want to swim eventually. That is, you have to keep yourself pretty taut and precise if you want to swim fast.

Looks to me Shinji is a bit inbetween these 2 examples. He is precise, but less toned than most competetive swimmers, or in a positive way, more relaxed. I find his core a bit too relaxed. Legs dangle a bit behind the trunk too much for my liking. That starts to work against you if you want to swim faster with the same catchup timing.
Then more tone and smoother (and even more precise) timing becomes more critical.

[Zenturtle]

So how does weight on catch looks like in an avarage timed stroke, that is a stroke thats still front quadrant, but barely.
Here is an experienced swimmer, against a beginner with a catchup stroke.
The beginner has again a severely dropped elbow offcourse, but also notice the lack of total body connection when comparing the experienced swimmer with the beginner.

nc 1


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nc 3

[Zenturtle]

nc 4


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and here in real live:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIQi6U7FqtA

The beginner has a pretty good recovery, and it looks like he uses it with the underwaterside, but no, its all dissipated in a sloppy noodlelike something.
Should beginners try to swim with horizontal arm extension and catchup timing? Seems not the best idea.
TI solves this with a deeper spear, but that solution also has its drawbacks.
Yeah, finding the right timing for you. Takes time.

Originally Posted by Zenturtle

nc 4


nc 5


and here in real live:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIQi6U7FqtA

The beginner has a pretty good recovery, and it looks like he uses it with the underwaterside, but no, its all dissipated in a sloppy noodlelike something.
Should beginners try to swim with horizontal arm extension and catchup timing? Seems not the best idea.
TI solves this with a deeper spear, but that solution also has its drawbacks.
Yeah, finding the right timing for you. Takes time.

Big realisation moment for me in the pool tonight,
Terry came into my head with that video you posted of "strong & stable shoulder blade on the lowside arm / relaxed & mobile shoulderblade on the high side arm"

and it worked a treat!

in the pics above the foreground swimmer has "coupled" his arms which means his lowside sweeps wide as the high side comes over

this is what i was working on for the last few weeks but now i think no,

forget the anchor leave that lead arm out and let it sit about 4-5 inches below the surface with a tensed stable shoulderblade (line from wrist to toes on that edge) & forget about it

switch focus to the highside & whip the recovery over with a relaxed shouldeblade

start rumning on the other edge

no need to lead with hip let them follow

face down relaxed neck

(it works with face forward but restricts shoulder mobility somewhat)

Arm coupling only works with high stroke rate shoulder driven or hybrid / true straight arm

the kinetic energy of coupling arms is reduced to near zero with hip driven freestyle

[Zenturtle]

yeah, you could be on to something,
HIgher strokerates makes you come in another territory. I dont know exactly.
Mostly swim with a pretty low strokerate.
pace 1.20- 1.30min /100m, 14-17 strokes/ 25 m. mostly interval 100m.Hardly ever reach 60 strokes/min and thats low for the other style to work I guess.
Flipping the arms over and right into catch at a higher strokerate is a style I always want to try more, but am a little addicted to reaching long.
So, what are you doing in the pool, to get a rough idea of your stroke.

Some reading on coupling re shoulder driven & hip driven

http://www.triathlete.com/2015/04/tr...m-speed_115471