Total Immersion Forums  

Go Back   Total Immersion Forums > Freestyle
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 11-26-2014
jenson1a jenson1a is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Southwest Florida
Posts: 671
jenson1a
Default More snorkel Questions

After reading the thread about using a snorkel to aid in breathing, I decided to try doing a few lengths with a snorkel and TT and mimic my usual breathing patterns--bilateral and every other stroke. I was expecting a lower spl and no breathlessness after doing 4 or 5 lengths. Usually after doing multiple lengths, I find that I tend to exhale more forcefully. My thought was that this forceful exhale was causing me to go into an oxygen debt. Using a snorkel should eliminate this.

I was surprised to find that my spl went way up--more than 3 or more strokes. The amount of ease in doing this did increase from a muscular standpoint, but the breathlessness was still happening. The amount of normal glide I have went wayyyyy down. I don't understand this. My head was face down and I think my posture was fairly normal for me.

Any thoughts?

Sherry
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 11-26-2014
s.sciame s.sciame is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Rome, Italy
Posts: 479
s.sciame
Default

Hi Sherry, glad you gave it a try, I find there's a lot of info in this kind of tests.

About the 3 more SPL, I suppose you rotated less than usual, glided less (as you point out), maybe you also increased your SR a bit without noticing, and that could explain why you ended up with 3 more SPL. Anyway, if it felt easier from a muscular standpoint and you think your posture was right and you also weren't slower than usual, I would say 3 more SPL were worth it. Viceversa, if you feel like your usual stroke count is less easy to maintain from a muscular standpoint, chances are that it's not your optimal stroke count yet.

About the breathlessness, you put the snorkel on and mimic your usual breathing pattern, then nothing changed, that's ok. In the other thread I was suggesting to do the reverse: forget for a while your usual breathing pattern (you still don't know if it's your optimal breathing pattern, maybe it's far from it if you're out of breath after 5 laps). Instead, put the snorkel on and start swimming relaxed, at first don't care about breathing just as you wouldn't care if you took a relaxed walk on dryland. The snorkel allows you to swim as you walk, since the air is always available. At this point you should already have removed your breathlessness, because you're breathing in your natural way, without forced patterns. If you don't get to this point, perhaps you still need to gain more confidence with the snorkel itself.
If instead you got to this point, while swimming with snorkel start observing your natural breathing rate: how often are you breathin in? Every 2, 3, 4 or more strokes? How long are you exhaling? Pay attention to it, then do the reverse of what you did: remove the snorkel and mimic your new, natural, easy breathing pattern. You shouldn't go in oxygen debt anymore.

Let me know if it works, happy laps!
Salvo
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 11-26-2014
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,244
CharlesCouturier
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jenson1a View Post
After reading the thread about using a snorkel to aid in breathing, I decided to try doing a few lengths with a snorkel and TT and mimic my usual breathing patterns--bilateral and every other stroke. I was expecting a lower spl and no breathlessness after doing 4 or 5 lengths. Usually after doing multiple lengths, I find that I tend to exhale more forcefully. My thought was that this forceful exhale was causing me to go into an oxygen debt. Using a snorkel should eliminate this.

I was surprised to find that my spl went way up--more than 3 or more strokes. The amount of ease in doing this did increase from a muscular standpoint, but the breathlessness was still happening. The amount of normal glide I have went wayyyyy down. I don't understand this. My head was face down and I think my posture was fairly normal for me.

Any thoughts?

Sherry
My feeling? You simply swam faster with the Snorkel, thus explaining the shorter stroke, and explaining the out of breath. That'd be normal outcome especially if for some reasons, you usually slow down your rate to inhale. What I mean here is that several people have their rate limited by the fact that they need x amount of time to inhale. In this context, if you take the breathing component way, you have no limiting factor anymore, hence the higher rate.

Therefore, in order to test if this makes sense or not, you'd need to time a 50 without Snorkel, then time a 50 with a Snorkel. If both times are identical and you still see your stroke being shorter, and you are still out of breath, then I'm wrong.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 11-27-2014
jenson1a jenson1a is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Southwest Florida
Posts: 671
jenson1a
Default

Salvo and Charles

Thanks for both of your replies and I will try out your suggestions. I seem to be at a plateau and I am trying to find out what is inhibiting my progress. Actually I am not really at a complete standstill. I have been working with the TT and have a lot more ease with it.

I feel that my balance is pretty good, but wasn't sure if my breathing was upsetting my balance. That was the main reason for trying the snorkel experiment. Should mention that the snorkel I use is the regular type, not the swimmer's or freestyle snorkel.

Sherry
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 11-27-2014
jenson1a jenson1a is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Southwest Florida
Posts: 671
jenson1a
Default

Charles

I tried your suggestion to time a 50 both with and without a snorkel The result was that the 50 using the snorkel was 5 seconds slower than without the snorkel. (65 seconds without snorkel and 70 seconds with the snorkel). I did notice that with the snorkel I did not have the same push off distance wise. Did not glide as long due to the fact that my push off was more on top of water than underneath the water. Also the snorkel tube was at the side of my head- I would imagine that there is more drag than if I didn't use the snorkel.

S.sciame suggested that with a snorkel there was probably less rotation. I think that this is also a probable factor in the increased time.

Salvo, you said: If instead you got to this point, while swimming with snorkel start observing your natural breathing rate: how often are you breathin in? Every 2, 3, 4 or more strokes? How long are you exhaling? Pay attention to it, then do the reverse of what you did: remove the snorkel and mimic your new, natural, easy breathing pattern. You shouldn't go in oxygen debt anymore.

Let me know if it works, happy laps!
Salvo



Tried your suggestion to swim a few laps to note normal breathing pattern. Did about 4 lengths and then decided to add the TT. I set it at 1:40 and breathed in every time I did a right hand pull. This seemed to be the most comfortable for me. Was able to do several lengths without a lot of breathlessness. Removed the snorkel and swam 4 more lengths with a lot of improvement in breathing. spl was around 18 to 20--not bad for me.

Hope this wasn't a fluke, but I won't be swimming again until next Monday. Hope things go like they did today.

Thanks for suggestion

Sherry
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 11-28-2014
s.sciame s.sciame is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Rome, Italy
Posts: 479
s.sciame
Default

Good news then Sherry, glad it helped. So you found that breathing every 2 is more comfortable than every 3 for you now. If you usually swim around a tempo of 1.4 that makes sense, definitely. At this rate, breathing every 3 leaves you only about 14 breaths per minute, vs 21 breaths per minute if you breathe every 2.
To have an idea of how many breaths you need to swim perpetually, try to count your breaths right now while reading in complete rest. You should be around 12 per minute. Then count while walking at a brisk pace, maybe you'll be around 20. Swimming at 14 breaths per min would be a diet. If you breathe every 2 (switching side every lap to keep symmetry), you shouldn't run out of breathe anymore.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 11-29-2014
Talvi Talvi is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Lappeenranta, Finland
Posts: 1,675
Talvi
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by s.sciame View Post
.... If you usually swim around a tempo of 1.4 that makes sense, definitely. At this rate, breathing every 3 leaves you only about 14 breaths per minute, vs 21 breaths per minute if you breathe every 2.
To have an idea of how many breaths you need to swim perpetually, try to count your breaths right now while reading in complete rest. You should be around 12 per minute. Then count while walking at a brisk pace, maybe you'll be around 20. Swimming at 14 breaths per min would be a diet. If you breathe every 2 (switching side every lap to keep symmetry), you shouldn't run out of breathe anymore.
Excellent observation!! I really hadn't looked at it that way before. (D'oh!)

Thanks.
__________________
A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
~ George Kelly

"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 11-30-2014
jenson1a jenson1a is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Southwest Florida
Posts: 671
jenson1a
Default

Mat Hudson has just posted an article on his website called Faster Tempo=Easier Swimming? Might want to check it out. Seems that a new keyword in this forum is optimal!

His site is meditterraswim.com

Sherry
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 11-30-2014
Talvi Talvi is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Lappeenranta, Finland
Posts: 1,675
Talvi
Default

Thanks Sherry,

p.s the link to that article is http://mediterraswim.com/2014/11/29/...sier-swimming/

p.s.s "He has started to work with increased tempo after a great deal of time mastering stroke length control. This allowed him to increased his tempo while maintaining relaxed control over SPL (strokes per length)" wonder what he used to measure HR
__________________
A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
~ George Kelly

"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov

Last edited by Talvi : 11-30-2014 at 01:31 PM.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are Off
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 10:03 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.