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  #71  
Old 09-07-2013
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier View Post
Hi mate, I think I've addressed your question in this post here (belonging to the current thread)

http://www.totalimmersion.net/forum/...5&postcount=45
...

Now where I respectfully disagree with you, is with the idea that it is almost inevitable that a TI lover would need to quit TI in order to access to ultrafast OW swimming in rough conditions. In other words, I think it is possible to love TI, and love high performance ow elite swimming.
I didn't say that TI-ers have to "quit TI in order to access ultrafast OW swimming in rough conditions", just that people who enjoy sailing seldom enjoy powerboating and there is no: "Yachts and Powerboats Monthly" magazine.

A ballet may be allegro, though probably not presto, whereas a tap dance might well be presto. They're both forms of dance but their aims are quite different. Some people simply enjoy dance, in all its forms, but the majority are attracted to one form or another, because the focus and content of each style is so very different.

The majority of ballet is not allegro. Their audiences do not come for the tempo. Tap dancing audiences on the other hand delight in the tempo.

I still don't know what the TI-style is as opposed to what it isn't, the differences (besides the number of kicks and the stroke rate) seem so "minor" to me. However their approaches to swimming seem extremely different. For me TI is about process not destination. Any speed is an incidental, an indicator of the efficiency that is its (secondary for me) goal. Power-swimmers may or may not be efficient. Their goal is speed. Efficiency in this can be downgraded with more power, greater endurance, enhanced physical attributes, etc. I don't think TI is about power or endurance or physical attributes.
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A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
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  #72  
Old 09-17-2013
StuartK StuartK is offline
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I'm probably literally out of my depth posting in this thread, but last weekend making the most of the last days of outdoor swimming before having to retreat to the 'delights' of the pool, I was swimming along the shore in disturbed water and was aware of the waves turning me over well on to my side and off balance as they passed. I tried increasing my stroke rate but I was still struggling to regain balance, which was still upset by the waves every time they passed. So instead of fighting it I tried spearing wider and gliding as the waves came through, which acted as an 'outrigger', then as I crested the wave I found gravity took over and allowed the spear, catch and pull through on the other side seemingly without effort. I was amazed how smooth and effortless moving through the disturbed water became. Can't wait to try it again, but perhaps it was just an illusion!
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  #73  
Old 09-17-2013
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StuartK View Post
I'm probably literally out of my depth posting in this thread, but last weekend making the most of the last days of outdoor swimming before having to retreat to the 'delights' of the pool, I was swimming along the shore in disturbed water and was aware of the waves turning me over well on to my side and off balance as they passed. I tried increasing my stroke rate but I was still struggling to regain balance, which was still upset by the waves every time they passed. So instead of fighting it I tried spearing wider and gliding as the waves came through, which acted as an 'outrigger', then as I crested the wave I found gravity took over and allowed the spear, catch and pull through on the other side seemingly without effort. I was amazed how smooth and effortless moving through the disturbed water became. Can't wait to try it again, but perhaps it was just an illusion!
WOW!!! Great to hear from you on here again and that you're making such strides. Awesome stuff. Explain a little more? You were swimming parallel to the waves; as the wave lifted you you made your spear away from it wider; then waited until the wave dropped you to spear away from it and pull "inside the wave? Is that close? Beats using a TT!!

What's the water temp? Are you using a suit? I went back to the pool weeks ago! Your post makes me think some of my problems have a root in not spearing "wide enough".
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A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
~ George Kelly

"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov
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  #74  
Old 09-17-2013
terry terry is offline
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Default Yes. TI form IS 'efficacious' in rough water!

Thanks Talvi and StuartK for your posts.

This thread is now over two months old, and the person who posed the question never appeared again after doing so. Did he only wish to put up a link to a video that suggested a high rate was the best way to handle rough water?

I think the vast majority of those who have made comments have answered his question. TI form is unquestionably efficacious in rough water -- or indeed any water for that matter.

I say this based on two things:

1) Efficacy is something that must be determined by every individual according to their personal situation, goals and priorities.
The video made reference mainly to young, elite-level athletes with superior fitness and bottom-line goals. They achieved their goals with a high stroke rate. Okay, fine. Yet there has been no evidence presented--here or elsewhere--that a lower stroke rate could not also achieve those goals, or perhaps even result in improved performance, if the swimmer used that lower rate to swim more economically and efficiently.

But the vast majority who embrace TI have different situations, goals and priorities. Not only in this thread, but in other threads and in some recent guest posts on my blog, countless people have related how a 'modulated' stroke was the key to (i) asserting a sense of control over their stroke and environment, (ii) being able to perform in a highly respectable measure in their peer group in endurance events, on moderate fitness levels, and (iii) most important to maximize their enjoyment of the experience.

2) TI Form is not fundamentally about whether your stroke rate is .8 sec per stroke, or 1.0 s/s, or 1.2 s/s. At any of those rates, it's about maintaining balance, alignment, stability, a low-drag profile, moving with fluency, and deriving your propulsive power from the core, not from arms and legs. And, of course, about swimming mindfully.

When you practice as we advocate, you can flexibly adapt TI Form to a wide range of stroke rates and water conditions.
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Last edited by terry : 09-17-2013 at 01:39 PM.
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  #75  
Old 09-17-2013
dougalt dougalt is offline
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Talvi:

Regarding "people who enjoy sailing seldom enjoy powerboating...", etc. - a very eloquent piece on how people can approach things with different values and goals.

Doug
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  #76  
Old 09-17-2013
flychick flychick is offline
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Well said Talvi and Terry, and Stuart, well done for your breakthrough - exciting stuff!!
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  #77  
Old 09-18-2013
StuartK StuartK is offline
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Terry, thanks it works for me!
Talvi, yes I'm still around and follow most of the posts. I noted your lake swims with a degree of envy, swimming in fresh water surrounded by trees must be a wonderful experience. It's amazing how satisfying it is to achieve goals that we once thought out of our reach. Who would of thought when I stumbled on Shinji's video that I would become a reasonably competent swimmer and swimming would become a major interest?
Yes you've got it right, we're not talking about Bondi beach size waves just standard strong wind driven waves before they break on the beach. I found that TI style of swimming (if it is a style) gives a solid grounding of what swimming is all about. It and makes you aware and allows you to analyse and adapt to what's going on, whereas hours grinding up and down a pool may make you fitter and faster but in open water this is not always what is required, you need to swim smart !
Sea temperature is around 17C it was up to 18.5 but is starting to fall, I haven't got a wet suit so I don't suppose there will be many more sea bathes this season, I can't take the cold these days, getting old? even when it was 18.5 I found 20 minutes enough. It's OK when the sun is shining but cloudy days with cold winds... Although there are a number of hardy folks here who swim every weekend throughout the year, without wet suits.
Still I've plenty of work to do in the pool correcting, improving and imprinting my stroke. Hopefully it will never end
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  #78  
Old 09-28-2013
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Dear manatee, good to hear from you again

Quote:
Originally Posted by StuartK View Post
...Sea temperature is around 17C it was up to 18.5 but is starting to fall, I haven't got a wet suit so I don't suppose there will be many more sea bathes this season, I can't take the cold these days, getting old? even when it was 18.5 I found 20 minutes enough. It's OK when the sun is shining but cloudy days with cold winds... Although there are a number of hardy folks here who swim every weekend throughout the year, without wet suits
BRRRRRRR!!!!! Last year I first swam when there was still ice, so the temp was very close to zero, but this year I STOPPED swimming in the lake when it got to 18'. It was a beautiful day but I was tired and hungry and my nose had begun to ache! At first I resented going back to the pool's limitations but, after swimming a mile in it and then getting confused as to whether that meant I now "had" to swim a mile every time I went (something that seemed to kill the fun of it), I got into being able to "lazily" practise form. My wetsuit made me feel like a cork which took away the total immersion experience (and my nose, and toes still got v. parkky. p.s the lakeside setting is exillarating it's true but the water is brown with only about 1m, visibility.) As you've said, our experience and fascination with TI is very similar indeed. Turning it into something of endurance and fitness isn't where it's at for me any more. When I recognise that feeling of hitting my head against a brick wall, no matter how soft it might be, turning around and going in the other direction always works a treat. I find that way I can simply wander around it. My "problem" at the moment is that the better I have got the further I go (or rather the longer I spend immersed) and I'm changing shape. I'm way too old for that!! The journey never ends
__________________
A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
~ George Kelly

"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov
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