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  #11  
Old 07-11-2015
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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Whats your conclusion when comparing these?

swimming
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U72vWHxvn6c

walking
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6nWJ5LP8Qs

I would say the basix movement is the same , but in walking the emphasis is on pushing the upperleg backwards, in swimming on pushing the upperleg forward and more musclular helical tone (twist) is needed.
if you concentrate on moving the leg forward instead of pushing off while walking , it feels a bit like swimming with a 2BK

Last edited by Zenturtle : 07-11-2015 at 05:06 PM.
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  #12  
Old 07-11-2015
Danny Danny is offline
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When walking, a certain amount of energy is stored in the torso by rotation. As a result, it takes some time for shoulder rotation to makes its way down to the hips (or vice versa). The firmer the core is, the less rotation occurs and the more quickly the communication between hips and shoulders occurs. I am trying to understand the difference between walking and swimming. My impression is that in swimming, a firmer core is required so that the communication between hips and shoulders occurs more quickly than in walking, but I am not sure of this.
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  #13  
Old 07-12-2015
CoachDavidShen CoachDavidShen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny View Post
When walking, a certain amount of energy is stored in the torso by rotation. As a result, it takes some time for shoulder rotation to makes its way down to the hips (or vice versa). The firmer the core is, the less rotation occurs and the more quickly the communication between hips and shoulders occurs. I am trying to understand the difference between walking and swimming. My impression is that in swimming, a firmer core is required so that the communication between hips and shoulders occurs more quickly than in walking, but I am not sure of this.
in swimming, energy is also stored as the fascia always stores energy and it's often not obvious how it happens. the more the athlete figures out how to store and release it, the more efficient they get (in addition to other efficiencies like metabolic system, nervous system and coordination).

the freestyle swimming movement is a bit weird. it is ipsilateral in nature (same side body elements moving together) but yet has contralateral elements (opposite side body elements moving) as when the opposite leg kicks in 2BK to send rotational energy across the body and out the spearing arm. so there are subtle rotations happening and perhaps not so obvious or pronounced as what could happen in running, especially when sprinting.

there is some experimentation of winding up the body by driving the hip first and then letting the body snap the opposite shoulder forward. i would categorize this as an advanced technique and something that anyone below that level should not tackle because you could mess up your back if you do it wrong. better to learn the basic techniques of torso stabilization first.

as for how stiff, i believe there is the same torso stabilization generated for either running or swimming. why? there is no additional load on the body due to gravity, only body weight and only wanting to move the body itself. the main area that needs to be stabilized is the lumbar spine area between bottom of rib cage and the pelvis. the secondary area that stabilizes is the upper torso or rib cage area and usually stabilizes enough as a consequence of properly stabilizing the lower torso.

in running, you need to make sure the pelvis does not hop up and down on either side as you take steps. this causes a loss of energy into the soft torso as you push the ground away with each step. if the torso is just stiff enough to prevent the up/down side/side motion of the pelvis, your running will be optimal as the legs have a nice (essentially) lossless body to push against. all energy will be devoted to moving the upper body forward.

in swimming, we need that stabilization to send energy from 2BK foot out the opposite arm. any softness in the system causes loss of energy as well as rising compensations in the body due to not having a stiff body to push off of.

in either case, you need to have the tension, but just the minimum amount of tension to create a stiff system that is flexible enough to twist when it wants/needs to. at first, you will feel like you are focusing 2000% on maintaining any kind of stiffness. over time, your body will learn that probably only needs about 20-30% energy to maintain just enough stiffness to perform the movement efficiently.
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  #14  
Old 07-12-2015
sclim sclim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachDavidShen View Post
the freestyle swimming movement is a bit weird.
Understatement of the century!!

Coach David: I have only recently got down to thinking into the meat of what's really happening in running gait and martial arts spin kick with respect to stored energy in the trunk rotational fascial elements (like the stored energy in the Achilles and other load-bearing lower-limb and trunk elements at foot-strike). So your detailed analysis of what's happening in swimming rotation motion and rotational translational to forward motion is fascinating.

Very hard for me to grasp initially because of the absence of obvious loading against gravity, which intuitively for me was always necessary in the first place, but now I see, not necessarily so.

Last edited by sclim : 07-12-2015 at 09:59 PM.
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  #15  
Old 07-12-2015
sclim sclim is offline
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On reading over several times, I see that the crux of the matter is in your last 2 paragraphs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachDavidShen View Post
in swimming, we need that stabilization to send energy from 2BK foot out the opposite arm. any softness in the system causes loss of energy as well as rising compensations in the body due to not having a stiff body to push off of.

in either case, you need to have the tension, but just the minimum amount of tension to create a stiff system that is flexible enough to twist when it wants/needs to. at first, you will feel like you are focusing 2000% on maintaining any kind of stiffness. over time, your body will learn that probably only needs about 20-30% energy to maintain just enough stiffness to perform the movement efficiently.
i.e. what you are saying is that there is a sweet spot of efficiency somewhere between no tension at all, and no "give" at all (total rigidity with torsional force being transmitted immediately with no lag due to energy storage and release.)

Also, what I finally figured out is that in water, although gravitational effects are much reduced, inertial effects are just as large as on land, whether as linear inertia or as rotational inertia (or both, I guess).

Last edited by sclim : 07-12-2015 at 09:58 PM.
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  #16  
Old 07-13-2015
CoachDavidShen CoachDavidShen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sclim View Post
Understatement of the century!!

Coach David: I have only recently got down to thinking into the meat of what's really happening in running gait and martial arts spin kick with respect to stored energy in the trunk rotational fascial elements (like the stored energy in the Achilles and other load-bearing lower-limb and trunk elements at foot-strike). So your detailed analysis of what's happening in swimming rotation motion and rotational translational to forward motion is fascinating.

Very hard for me to grasp initially because of the absence of obvious loading against gravity, which intuitively for me was always necessary in the first place, but now I see, not necessarily so.
sclim, you make some key points. humans were built to move forward upright, with the torso leading. so our fascia and structures can best store energy for efficient upright movement. we take a step, the opposite arm goes forward for balance, but also causes a bit of twisting to store energy for the next step on the other side.

freestyle swimming really isn't our natural thing. so we spent some decades figuring out how to optimize for moving in a medium that does not allow us to stabilize against (ie. when we walk, we can stabilize against the ground). the only thing we can stabilize against is our own body, hence our focus on torso stabilization when we perform swimming movements. gravity as you say has an effect here. on land, we push against a surface and gravity. in water, gravity is negated somewhat; we only have this ephemeral water to push against.

however, as we get more efficient at any movement, we can also figure out how to store energy to make use of our fascia to help us with the current movement, and then the next movement on the other side. we are on the tip of the iceberg with respect to understanding fascia and how it stores energy. don't ask me to know how to compare how much energy is stored for each kind of movement!
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  #17  
Old 07-13-2015
CoachDavidShen CoachDavidShen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sclim View Post
On reading over several times, I see that the crux of the matter is in your last 2 paragraphs.

i.e. what you are saying is that there is a sweet spot of efficiency somewhere between no tension at all, and no "give" at all (total rigidity with torsional force being transmitted immediately with no lag due to energy storage and release.)

Also, what I finally figured out is that in water, although gravitational effects are much reduced, inertial effects are just as large as on land, whether as linear inertia or as rotational inertia (or both, I guess).
yes there is a sweet spot. you will know it when you get there. it will happen unconsciously as you know you need to move, so you stabilize appropriately to do so.

in the beginning, it could be hard, especially for us 21st century creatures who have sat too much and have stayed away from any kind of exercise or movement. or it could be simply hard because of unfamiliarity (ie. moving in water vs. on land).

whenever you learn a new movement, it could feel like you are exerting 2000% to merely make the movement possible. the CNS is learning, and you're commanding the body to do something it's not used to doing. but that's what practice is for; you eventually imprint the movement and whatever else you need to do, ie. stabilize the torso just enough vs. focusing every fiber of your being to stabilize). as you get better, you won't feel like you're spending 2000% of your brain power on these things. they will come naturally and then you can spend your time on things down the line in our progression of balance -> streamline -> propulsion -> optimization.
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  #18  
Old 08-27-2015
EmbracingKaizen EmbracingKaizen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachDavidShen View Post
you need to have the tension, but just the minimum amount of tension to create a stiff system that is flexible enough to twist when it wants/needs to. at first, you will feel like you are focusing 2000% on maintaining any kind of stiffness. over time, your body will learn that probably only needs about 20-30% energy to maintain just enough stiffness to perform the movement efficiently.

yes there is a sweet spot. you will know it when you get there. it will happen unconsciously as you know you need to move, so you stabilize appropriately to do so.

whenever you learn a new movement, it could feel like you are exerting 2000% to merely make the movement possible. the CNS is learning, and you're commanding the body to do something it's not used to doing. but that's what practice is for; you eventually imprint the movement and whatever else you need to do, ie. stabilize the torso just enough vs. focusing every fiber of your being to stabilize). as you get better, you won't feel like you're spending 2000% of your brain power on these things.
I don't think I saw core stiffness mentioned in Terry's "Ultra Efficient Freestyle". Did I miss it? I'm in the 2000% phase trying to keep my core engaged (stomach tight, glutes like they are squeezing a walnut). Tiring! And it's difficult to kick while keeping the middle tight. Any suggestions on how I can better learn/practice keeping the core tight?
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  #19  
Old 08-27-2015
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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Do you workt on a straight posture on dryland?
Dong this will improve your postural awareness and core tension awareness.

Another reminder is switching between slow and fast swimming.
Fast swimming needs a much tighter bodytone to keep your roll in sync with your armpull.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 08-27-2015 at 06:11 AM.
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  #20  
Old 08-27-2015
Danny Danny is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EmbracingKaizen View Post
I don't think I saw core stiffness mentioned in Terry's "Ultra Efficient Freestyle". Did I miss it? I'm in the 2000% phase trying to keep my core engaged (stomach tight, glutes like they are squeezing a walnut). Tiring! And it's difficult to kick while keeping the middle tight. Any suggestions on how I can better learn/practice keeping the core tight?
Here's a suggestion which may, or may not help. While lying on your back on the floor, make a bridge by raising your butt and as much of the shoulders off the floor as you can, then let it down. The major muscles that work when you do this are the glutes. Now cycle the motion, bridge, relax, bridge, relax. You will probably notice yourself holding your breath when you bridge. Now try to do the same motion, but try to breath in a very relaxed fashion, maybe not even in sync with the bridging motion. I think this can help one to learn how to relax while working the glutes, but maybe it's just me.
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