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  #11  
Old 07-08-2013
Rincewind Rincewind is offline
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Yes you guys are right:

L1-r2-l3-R4-l5-r6

The L1 and R4 correspond to the spears

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6W532CQjbXY
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  #12  
Old 07-09-2013
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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And 4bk is just taking either 2-3 or 5-6 out. You end up with an asymmetrical kicking pattern, which generally suits unilateral breathers a bit better. 1-2-3-4.. 1-2-3-4.. or 1.. 4-5-6-1..

where 1 and 4 remains those two dominant kicks timed pretty much where the 2bk would fall.

It's worth noting that most if not all of that falls, in presence of a flat out sprint. Then it becomes 1-2-3-4-5-6-1-2-3-4-5-6. This is probably one of the most difficult technical aspect of sprinting. Take a board, flat out kick. Now swim trying to kick as much. Very hard, you loose more than half of the power as soon as you put everything together.
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  #13  
Old 07-09-2013
CoachDavidShen CoachDavidShen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier View Post
No don't worry, I was just reacting to David's little mistake, which I always do myself. In a 6bk, the two major ones are 1th and 4th, not 1th and 3rd.

In fact the third one is a very minor kick.
I meant every 3rd kick, to which i meant 1-2-3rd-1-2-3rd...
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  #14  
Old 07-09-2013
craig.arnold@gmail.com craig.arnold@gmail.com is offline
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This thread inspired me to try a 4BK this morning.

I certainly don't think it was giving me much extra propulsion over the 2BK, so I guess it would be mainly for balance.

Maybe if combined with a slight "lope" on the breathing side it could generate some extra power.

(After much practice I am now much better at breathing left, but still 5-10% less efficient/slower. My best stroke is breathing every 3rd stroke, but I'm just too heavy to do that for long distances at the moment. I have embarked on a weight loss program, so perhaps in a few months I will be able to manage longer distances. But for now it's mostly right-side breathing. Also my sinus/chest infection of 3 months seems to have finally cleared up after two courses of anti-biotics, so I do have more air and was able to do quite a lot more 3rd stroke breathing today.)
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  #15  
Old 07-09-2013
swimust swimust is offline
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Why is everyone trying to complicate things with 6bk? It can create drag and balance issues and gets you tired in a long distance swim. I guess new swimmers cant let go of the flutter so they stick to the 6bk.
If you don't compete in a short race (50-200 meters) why use 6bk?
Just my humble opinion.
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  #16  
Old 07-09-2013
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier View Post
In fact, the swim waltz was inspired by this very simple fact. It promotes thinking ternary (music term which encompasses the waltz, or anyother 123-123 based beat).
Your identification of the walz really helped me Charles, and that's illustrated in the Sun Yang clip. Seems to me that the whole freestyle stroke can be thought of as a horizontal dance step, with a time signature, which, as with all time signatures, has the emphasised beat at the beginning of each bar as you say.

Breaking the arm stokes down to their simplest elements, the recovery/spear can be viewed as one extended beat (a "slur" of two notes in musical language), producing a minim as opposed to a crotchet. So, while the underwater stroke has two beats (the catch and the pull) the overwater stroke has only one (the recovery/spear). If we consider one "bar" as being two strokes then the arms execute a 4/4 signature (2/2 if one stroke equals one bar and don't ask me for the time signature to include the triplets of a 6bk!).

So, In 4/4, a common time, the overwater arm hits beats 1 and 3 and the underwater arm hits beats 1, 2, 3, and 4. A dance instructor would call "ONE, two; TWO, two; ONE, two, TWO, .. etc). You can mimic it by simply placing your hands on a table and beating the time out. I remember this being called a paraddiddle by drummers. Doing it at a swimming stroke tempo (count: one, thousand, two, thousand, etc, slowly and each number and each thousand represents a beat) is ok, any faster becomes a challenge!

The overwater stroke overlaps with the catch but as the catch takes less time than the pull, there is in reality also a syncopated feel to it all (the accelaration that Shinji speaks of).
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  #17  
Old 07-09-2013
ananthaditya ananthaditya is offline
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Talvi, the vids were just right for what they conveyed. Seems like you really pored over the footage frame by frame. It was certainly an 'Aha!' moment for me watching them, and I'm deeply thankful to you for sharing your observations.

Now, about the kicking... here's a thought... how about a 1-1-2-2-1-1-2-2 pattern? Anyone try that? I call it the Kick-start-your-motor-scooter-Kick :)
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  #18  
Old 07-09-2013
ananthaditya ananthaditya is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wmeg View Post
You can also think about it the other way and see that, in the case of Shinji, the catch and the kick on the same side happen simultaneously. This can be practiced as such
Strangely, I just can't think of it like this, maybe because the concept of a 'catch' has too many nuances, and I'm too lazy to bother about it. I relate to the pull, though, and think of the catch only as the phase before the start of the pull, after completing the spear.

This is how I made sense of the video: When I get to the pool tomorrow, I'm going to kick-spear and catch-drive. Kick-spear and catch-drive, kick-spear and catch-drive. Until I'm tired of it.
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  #19  
Old 07-09-2013
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig.arnold@gmail.com View Post
This thread inspired me to try a 4BK this morning.

I certainly don't think it was giving me much extra propulsion over the 2BK, so I guess it would be mainly for balance.
Yes it would be for balance only. Adds a touch of buoyancy whilst breathing (that is most of the time), however it's worth noting that Maglischo has observed several swimmers performing the 4bk with the flutter portion whilst gliding, not whilst breathing. And it seems to be the pattern of choice for Sun Yang.
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  #20  
Old 07-10-2013
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Trying to get the pattern on dryland did my head in yesterday, but then I "got it".

Doing the exercise standing up: time your kick, on the floor, to coincide with your opposite arm being straight out in front of you. It's like you're marking the (same) beat by kicking the floor with one leg and hitting a tall conga drum with the opposite hand (before throwing it away behind you /driving it into the ground - the pull/spear bit). The recovery arm (moving back to straight up into the air) is the easy bit and sort of sorts itself out. So, you're then left to orientate and finesse around a two way split:

Catch/kick, and Pull/spear (or maybe pull/glide)

Make sense?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ananthaditya View Post
It was certainly an 'Aha!' moment for me watching them, and I'm deeply thankful to you for sharing your observations.
Thanks for that :) I was a Youtube virgin too, so I'm glad they were useful.
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A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
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"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov
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