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  #1  
Old 07-21-2010
LennartLarsson LennartLarsson is offline
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LennartLarsson
Default TT continued

I tried that pretty tough 12x200 again and this time it was better, but not good. I am losing my stroke length, which means higher frequency is not giving better results. This time I stared TT at 1.12. Maybe I shall start even slower next time? On the final two repeats I was pretty tired. (Start every 4 minutes):

TT 1.12
4x200
03.14
03.14
03.14
03.12

TT 1.10
4x200
03.12
03.12
03.12
03.12
TT 1.08
03.12
03.12
03.14
03.10

Ideally, the second round should land at 3,10-3,11 and the last one at 3,07.I am far from that. But I will do the best I can to make it better.

Yesterday I swam 1.23 hours in the lake. Friday I was resting.

/Lennart
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  #2  
Old 07-21-2010
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Lennart,

I'm replying here so that everyone can benefit from the discussion. Your comment that you are losing stroke length is exactly the reason I suggested the previous set in the other thread. Starting at 1.12 or 1.14 and slowign the tempo by .02 with each set.

You still have not found where your tradeoff is between SL and SR. In a previous post you mentioned that you swam much faster without the TT. What I was suspicious of is that your self-selected tempo was slower, resulting in a longer SL which far outweighed the drawback of slowing the tempo, and the net result is that you were faster.

Rather than feelign that a slower tempo'd set wouldn't lead to better prepration for your upcomign race, you may discover that a slower tempo could actually lead you to faster swimming...which would be a great thing to discover.

Don't fall into the trap that so many AG triathletes and masters swimmers fall into which is that just because it "feels" harder, it must be a better workout.

I think you still need to experiment more with the TT to discover it's best benefits, rather than just using it to create a workout that feels hard.

Of course, I could be totally off base too. :)

Best of luck and please continue to keep us in formed.
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Suzanne Atkinson, MD
Level 3 USAT Coach
USA Paralympic Triathlon Coach
Coach of 5 time USA Triathlon Triathlete of the Year, Kirsten Sass
Steel City Endurance, LTD
Fresh Freestyle

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  #3  
Old 07-21-2010
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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HEre's an alternative idea which may be less scary for you:

2 x 200 @ 1.12
2 x 200 @ 1.14 (try to reduce SPL as tempo slows)
2 x 200 @ 1.16
2 x 200 @ 1.14 (maintain long stroke and keep SPL from the 1.16 set)
2 x 200 @ 1.12 (maintain SPL)
2 x 200 @ 1.10 (maintain)
2 x 200 @ 1.08 (maintain)

2 x 200 self selected tempo, no TT

Note times for each set...this will be a really good set to experiment with a range of TT settings adn trying to keep the better from as you increase the tempo.
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Suzanne Atkinson, MD
Level 3 USAT Coach
USA Paralympic Triathlon Coach
Coach of 5 time USA Triathlon Triathlete of the Year, Kirsten Sass
Steel City Endurance, LTD
Fresh Freestyle

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  #4  
Old 07-22-2010
LennartLarsson LennartLarsson is offline
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Posts: 42
LennartLarsson
Default It is logic what you say

Suzanne,

It makes sense to aim for an optimum. I tried today in the pool, but the place was so crowded and short time to the close made it impossible to do a full work out. My 150 and 200 @ 1.10 (I started with that) was slower than @ 1.12 with about 1-2 seconds, but as I said I need more time and less people. When starting @ 1.10 and moving slower, it feels more relaxed and I get the time to make the full stroke with less stress. I will report back later. Thanks for the advice!
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  #5  
Old 07-23-2010
terry terry is offline
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Suzanne's suggestion to initially slow the tempo is one I have tried with great success myself on a number of occasions. I can't recall the times I did but last summer I did a set of 400-yd repeats on the 200-yard cable at Lake Minnewaska. I set the Tempo Trainer at 1.10 initially and began with the idea that I would reset tempo .02 slower for each succeeding 400. Using a Timex sportswatch, I also timed my 400s and determined I would continue slowing tempo until my 400 time got slower. As I recall, I improved slightly @ 1.12 and held that time @ 1.14, then swam slightly slower @ 1.16. At that point I reversed the pattern and began increasing tempo by .02 sec each 400 after that. I continued until I had done 10 x 400, with the last one at 1.04. My time improved on each of the final six 400s.
The secret of this set is that initially slowing tempo allowed me to find a Stroke Length Sweet Spot which helped me swim much better as tempo increased.

The other option is to do as Lennart has, and steadily increase tempo from your starting point, but possibly adjust repeat distance or rest interval. My goal on sets such as these is to aim for any sign of improvement in my neural program.
A combination of SL and Tempo that produces increased velocity or pace is good outcome. I'm willing to adjust both repeat length and rest interval if that helps facilitate that improvement. So, on a set like Lennart's I could do either of the following:
1) Swim 150m repeats on 2nd round and 125 or 100m repeats on 3rd.
OR
2) If I stay with 200m repeats, add an EZ 50 between 200s on 2nd round, and possibly an EZ 100 between 200s on 3rd round.
I would do this in hopes that my pace would get faster in round 2 and faster again in round 3.
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May your laps be as happy as mine.

My TI Story
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  #6  
Old 07-23-2010
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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[quote=terry;11828
but possibly adjust repeat distance or rest interval. My goal on sets such as these is to aim for any sign of improvement in my neural program.
A combination of SL and Tempo that produces increased velocity or pace is good outcome. I'm willing to adjust both repeat length and rest interval if that helps facilitate that improvement.[/QUOTE]

Excellent. Thanks for the reminder about these other ways to improve speed.
__________________
Suzanne Atkinson, MD
Level 3 USAT Coach
USA Paralympic Triathlon Coach
Coach of 5 time USA Triathlon Triathlete of the Year, Kirsten Sass
Steel City Endurance, LTD
Fresh Freestyle

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  #7  
Old 08-09-2010
galax galax is offline
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Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 24
galax
Default Stroke lenght, stroke rate and distance...

Hello, I'm from Italy , I'm registered here since may 2009 and I've found here much food for though. I'm 46Y , and I follow TI method with good results ( in my opinion of course...)

I like swimming and, particulary, i like swimming in open water and during this summer I partecipate a 2 swim race across lake in north of Italy.
These races aren't very long, the distance very from 1Km to 3.5Km.
In swimming pool my pace to cover 1km is about 1' 38" / 1'40" every 100 meters..
I've bought a TT and it's very interesting measure stroke rate and stroke lenght, but there are many parameters to consider in trying to measure my swimming efficiency.
An argument very interesting is this one: fix three zones greeen , yellow and red.
But my question is: how these zones changing in varying distance ?
The more important zone is the yellow one, that is the stroke rate that permit us to be efficient.

In 100m repeats I can mantain a good efficiency from 1.14 to 1.06, from 1.06 to 1.00 the final time doesn't improve because my stroke loose efficiency at 1.06.

In 400m repeats I can mantain a good efficiecy from 1.14 to 1.10. At 1.10 I begin to loose efficiency but from 1.08 to 1.00 the final time descent because stoke rate make up for stroke length at lower frequency.
It seems that yellow zone is at higher rate in 400m repeats than 100m !!
Or better in doing sets of 400/800 meters frequency pay more than shorter sets because in long distance I loose efficiency at slower rate than in short distance.
In comparaison with cycling ( I was a biker ...) for long climb i need to use a specified gear, but if the climb is shorter i can afford the slope with a longer gear.

Sorry for any mistakes but my english is not very good..
bye
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