Total Immersion Forums  

Go Back   Total Immersion Forums > Freestyle
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old 07-29-2015
Talvi Talvi is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Lappeenranta, Finland
Posts: 1,675
Talvi
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Pamperin View Post
.. In fact, it may be that the palm is/should be facing back right up until the moment it begins to be pulled forward by the elbow. ..
Exactly and as I was trying to describe.

Recovery has become one of my four focuses, and one of the two most significant I think.

If you think of rowing a boat, a good oar movement includes the exit from the water and positioning the oar ready to slice back in when you want to take the next stroke. In swimming, the glide phase cannot be extended as it can when rowing so there is far less of a "pause" before recovery, but if you look at Shinji's recovery you can see the same movement as you would of an oar above water, including the same slow down and precision before cutting in for the next stroke.

For me, recovery has come to define the underwater pull phase of the stroke. Focusing on making a good recovery, from just before exit to just before dropping the arm back in, takes my focus away from the pull. I find this to be a good thing overall for timing generally. It also puts my attention "where" it should be for breathing, track maintenance, and diagonal kick and spear.

It's all delightfully counterintuitive!
__________________
A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
~ George Kelly

"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov

Last edited by Talvi : 07-29-2015 at 12:31 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 07-29-2015
Tom Pamperin Tom Pamperin is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 712
Tom Pamperin
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talvi View Post
For me, recovery has come to define the underwater pull phase of the stroke. Focusing on making a good recovery, from just before exit to just before dropping the arm back in, takes my focus away from the pull. I find this to be a good thing overall for timing generally. It also puts my attention "where" it should be for breathing, track maintenance, and diagonal kick and spear.
Sounds just like what I'm discovering. I never thought to compare the swimming recovery to rowing (I'm a small boat sailor/rower), but now that you've said it, the similarities seem obvious. Another way to understand it all!
__________________
Tom
www.tompamperin.com
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 07-29-2015
CoachStuartMcDougal's Avatar
CoachStuartMcDougal CoachStuartMcDougal is offline
coach
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,353
CoachStuartMcDougal
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talvi View Post
Exactly and as I was trying to describe.
For me, recovery has come to define the underwater pull phase of the stroke. Focusing on making a good recovery, from just before exit to just before dropping the arm back in, takes my focus away from the pull. I find this to be a good thing overall for timing generally. It also puts my attention "where" it should be for breathing, track maintenance, and diagonal kick and spear.

It's all delightfully counterintuitive!
Hi Talvi,

I'm a SUP'r (stand up paddle-boarder), and know a couple of uber canoers too. It's all about setting up above the surface, slice paddle in clean and anchor (they call it the catch too), positioning body for max leverage, drive the vessel past the anchored paddle using hips/core (no pulling!), with a very clean and quiet exit recovering forward for the next stroke.

It took me a long time to arrive at the same conclusion "stop pulling" too. After all, I've read many swim articles from credible sources noting "it's all about what happens below the surface that counts - the pull". There are entire DVD's, videos, articles all dedicated to the pulling phases of the stroke that completely ignore the most important phase, "the recovery". I once held tightly to this rather narrow view and understood the "recovery" is only about a rest or break from the effort of pulling as its name implies.

It's *all* about the recovery, really "the skill in recovery" from exit to entry, as you have discovered. The ballistic forces created above the surface (recovery arm) affect everything below the surface and not just the arm moving back. If these forces are not managed (or ignored) it creates imbalances that trigger involuntary movements of arms and legs, bobbing/sinking, lateral twisting spine - all destabilizing the vessel below the surface that moves forward. A precise recovery entry (or slice in) sets the body up for maximum leverage and grip at the "catch" phase of the below surface stroke. I very rarely think about the arm moving back, only the vessel and recovery arm that moves forward. This was a major perception shift for me and took some time to fully grasp due to the bombardment of conventional thought over the years.

Keep up the good work and open mind!

Stuart
www.mindbodyandswim.net
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 07-29-2015
johynr]]] johynr]]] is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: London
Posts: 187
johynr]]]
Default

Hi All,

I am trying to leave behind the mindset of 'pulling' but I am having a hard time.

Can anybody suggest a few tips/hints that worked for them.

Given the spear arm starts straight and then 'folds', at what point do you mentally roll the body over the arm?

John
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 07-29-2015
CoachStuartMcDougal's Avatar
CoachStuartMcDougal CoachStuartMcDougal is offline
coach
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,353
CoachStuartMcDougal
Default

Hi John,

Some focal points that have worked well to remove the trigger to pull, is focus on finishing the stroke forward, slicing in fingertips, wrist, then elbow hitting your forward target. Fist drill is also very good since it takes away the dominate palm that wants to grab and pull early; same focus too, think "fist forward", not "fist back". Another good drill to focus on the transition (or switch) forward is the Spear Switch. In Spear Switch both arms are in front quadrant, body stable and balanced, focus on shifting or rotating body as you spear to forward target. This will help remove the (human) trigger to pull, but the process takes time and patience.

Stuart

Last edited by CoachStuartMcDougal : 07-29-2015 at 06:39 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 07-29-2015
Janos Janos is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Liverpool, England
Posts: 389
Janos
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by johynr]]] View Post
Hi All,

I am trying to leave behind the mindset of 'pulling' but I am having a hard time.

Can anybody suggest a few tips/hints that worked for them.

Given the spear arm starts straight and then 'folds', at what point do you mentally roll the body over the arm?

John
John, you may find the underswitch drill done more dynamically will give you a clearer picture of what you want to achieve.

When you recover the arm under and close to the body, extend it to full extension. On reaching full extension you will feel it propel your body forward slightly. This will happen if you extend steadily and then just at the last moment use the first part of your rotation to force it forward.

When the body moves forward, the catch should be almost formed and then use the rest of your rotation against the catch to complete the stroke.

Forcing the recovery above water will not help this process, but thinking of the recovery as the upward part of a cyclist pedalling will help. I like to think of it as an 'engaged' recovery. certainly not a forced one.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 07-29-2015
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,898
Zenturtle
Default

The `traditional` view on recovery is not so far from TIs view
http://racedaycoaching.com/?p=553

its `all` about the recovery is just as exagerated as sayng its `all` about the underwater pull.
Why does it always have to be so black or white?
In swimming all actions are connected. All have to be good te be a good swimmer.

I agree with the positive change in perspective a focus on recovery can bring.
Only rushing to the next pull is certainly like fighting an uphilll battle. (speaking from experience ;-/)
But the proper recovery only has optimal potential when its combined with setting up a good anchor at the other side of the body.
And that has a lot to do with the dreaded underwater arm mechanics.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 07-29-2015 at 09:51 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 07-30-2015
CoachStuartMcDougal's Avatar
CoachStuartMcDougal CoachStuartMcDougal is offline
coach
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,353
CoachStuartMcDougal
Default

Zt:

I didn't suggest or imply being all about the recovery is black or white, only that it is directly connected and affects all parts of the stroke, kick, breath - the shape and stability of the vessel (your body). I would use emphasis, not exaggerated - but you are free to choose your own words.

The main point is there's a lot of talk about mastering the catch or "pull mechanics", but without including the affect of recovery on overall stability and leverage - it becomes moot. At risk of being cliche', like putting the cart before the horse.

This recovery discussion inspired me to write a blog for US Masters Swimming: "The Skill(s) in Recovery". Something like that anyway. Thanks for starting the thread John!

Stuart
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 07-30-2015
johynr]]] johynr]]] is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: London
Posts: 187
johynr]]]
Default

Hi Janos,

I don't understand this part ...

"This will happen if you extend steadily and then just at the last moment use the first part of your rotation to force it forward.".
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 07-30-2015
johynr]]] johynr]]] is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: London
Posts: 187
johynr]]]
Default

Another question regarding the spearswitch/underswitch drillls ...

Should I be trying to coordinate a 2BK with them or just use a flutter kick throughout?
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are Off
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 03:16 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.