Rotation/Catch/Kick Synchronization and Timing Variants

Incedentally i found extending to the elbows on breaststroke was better too

Its probably all due to avoiding a scapula pritracted catch by extending too far

Back from the pool now, did a bit more experimentation

I found that entering half way between the elbow & wrist of the lowside arm was best for me (which shows inwas probably overshooting that before) nice smooth switch.

and head position gelled it all together when i raised it to the water line at my hairline checked my feet and the were sitting just below the sirface at the back, didn't feel banana'd through the torso either and had a good connection to the arms from the hips.

Entry and extention was very shallow finishing lower at full extention about 200mm below tge surface, bit of a high evf taken with rotation actually.

[sclim]

Originally Posted by Mushroomfloat

Extending to the elbows here:

https://youtu.be/z59s13BVDrE

"like a little choo choo train.....like a little choo choo motion" lolz

OK, I see where you take your inspiration from!

I would point out, though, that this video, narrated by Stephan Vidmar, a coach, presumably, advocates a whole slew of principles not aligning with TI's, for instance

1) He advocates an "uphill" alignment -- head higher than shoulders, shoulders higher than hips, hips higher than legs. he has his reasons and rationale, supposedly to give a solid base for a strong leg drive. This may be appropriate for 50m, 100m, 200m sprints, and for the 6 beat kick the swimmer is doing. But I'm a bad leg sinker, and I need all the help I can get not letting my legs down and preserving efficiency for long distances

2) I see and hear the video advice not pushing any further forward than the elbow.

Not saying it's wrong -- just saying it's a different approach than advised by TI. I just can't see that approach 1) would help me at all.

I'm puzzled by 2) though. I have great trouble keeping my spear hand straight. I always seem to have a slight elbow bend. When I really focus I can get the elbow straight when spearing, but it takes a lot of concentration, and I think it wears me out faster. But I couldn't figure out why -- I thought I was just habitually lazy, and when I concentrated on doing this new (for me) action I was sending an unnecessary amount of tension to my elbow/wrist/hand, maybe even to my shoulder/chest too, but I thought with practice I could learn to do it correctly with relaxation.

Your description is the first time I have heard anyone other than me having trouble burning off too much energy by trying to get the spear stretch as straight as possible all the way to the finger tips. I've got to digest this new information a bit more.

Also, further back in your description

"and not stretch the shoulder right up to the cheek like your reaching for a high shelf "...

I know some swimmers snug up their cheek to their shoulder, presumably to aid in the streamlining. When I suggested to my TI advisor that I could do this he said not to, as it would drag the head alignment out of the centerline towards the downside arm line, and I would gain very little out of the closeness of cheek to the shoulder and pay a much higher drag price for loss of head axis alignment.

So your reason is more for not using up energy unnecessarily, but there appear to be other good reasons not to.

[sclim]

Originally Posted by Mushroomfloat

Yeah the wrist went in and as the elbow went in i leant on it, being as i was delivering the arms from the hip rotation then yes i was probably leaning on it because my high side hip was rolling down.

The whole thing kept me high in the water and very stable rotation probably about 40-45 degrees

High in what sense? I ask because your video you showed is promoting a high front end/low back end as a desirable thing, so I want to know which part of your body was kept high by your pushing down on the elbow with hip rotational force.

Originally Posted by sclim

High in what sense? I ask because your video you showed is promoting a high front end/low back end as a desirable thing, so I want to know which part of your body was kept high by your pushing down on the elbow with hip rotational force.

All of it!
It added stability that was lost by going narrow and long spear (snug to cheek) this made me lower in the water
leaning on the elbows at entry was like an outrigger which kept me higher

Originally Posted by sclim

OK, I see where you take your inspiration from!

I would point out, though, that this video, narrated by Stephan Vidmar, a coach, presumably, advocates a whole slew of principles not aligning with TI's, for instance

1) He advocates an "uphill" alignment -- head higher than shoulders, shoulders higher than hips, hips higher than legs. he has his reasons and rationale, supposedly to give a solid base for a strong leg drive. This may be appropriate for 50m, 100m, 200m sprints, and for the 6 beat kick the swimmer is doing. But I'm a bad leg sinker, and I need all the help I can get not letting my legs down and preserving efficiency for long distances

2) I see and hear the video advice not pushing any further forward than the elbow.

Not saying it's wrong -- just saying it's a different approach than advised by TI. I just can't see that approach 1) would help me at all.

I'm puzzled by 2) though. I have great trouble keeping my spear hand straight. I always seem to have a slight elbow bend. When I really focus I can get the elbow straight when spearing, but it takes a lot of concentration, and I think it wears me out faster. But I couldn't figure out why -- I thought I was just habitually lazy, and when I concentrated on doing this new (for me) action I was sending an unnecessary amount of tension to my elbow/wrist/hand, maybe even to my shoulder/chest too, but I thought with practice I could learn to do it correctly with relaxation.

Your description is the first time I have heard anyone other than me having trouble burning off too much energy by trying to get the spear stretch as straight as possible all the way to the finger tips. I've got to digest this new information a bit more.

Also, further back in your description

"and not stretch the shoulder right up to the cheek like your reaching for a high shelf "...

I know some swimmers snug up their cheek to their shoulder, presumably to aid in the streamlining. When I suggested to my TI advisor that I could do this he said not to, as it would drag the head alignment out of the centerline towards the downside arm line, and I would gain very little out of the closeness of cheek to the shoulder and pay a much higher drag price for loss of head axis alignment.

So your reason is more for not using up energy unnecessarily, but there appear to be other good reasons not to.

I have basically geavitated to that via trial & error

Also i found that if you look closely you can see her elbow hit the water before her hand this is kind of what ive been doing too
the almost strike together

Probably not a distance stroke but it is fantastic, if you can batter out 8 lengths of the pool like that then you are king!

Incedentally the triathlon pullbuoy crowd at my local tonight all disappeared within 10 mins of me opening up with my new found tricks lol

ive been a head straight down stalwart for the last 2 yrs and now i think it cops some drag but more importantly i seem to be able to turn the arms over easier with it slightly up, with it right down i can pull behind the scapular plane if im not carefull.

Certainly felt i could get more leverage with it up recruiting the lats more

somewhere in taht video he talks about inly extending to the elbow and keeping thr hands light gives a high body poisition as the blade whips through

the thing with going super long extension is you have to unwind the whole thing which is where i think the energy is burned.

Im not a sea swimmer but with a current i could see that going nowhere fast.

The stroke feels shorter but faster & easier energy wise.

Need to experiment more and see if its appropriate to distance.