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  #21  
Old 04-30-2013
haschu33 haschu33 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
I think I see the leg that you are talking about, ...
Well, a underwater shot would be helpful. Since the camera is on the right it shows quite an exact side view when you are rotated to your left side. So from the side you always see the legs separating during kick/flick/snap since that is the idea of the kick. And since you rotate 'like a rock' and don't twist in your torso the right kick will be directed down and to the side when your body rotates. So this could be a complete normal kick.
BTW that kick of yours in this video is really a small kick, it is smaller and less forceful than that of Shinji. Which is a sign of a really relaxed stroke, I bet you can kick harder.

I don't want to open up that discussion again, but if this kick of yours here is not something that you could call a 'flick' or 'snap' then I don't now what is flick/snap is supposed to be.


Hang on in there, good work, madam!

Last edited by haschu33 : 04-30-2013 at 12:08 PM.
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  #22  
Old 04-30-2013
mjm mjm is offline
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The technique is much improved, fluid and silky. The slight scissor kick is a leftover (IMHO) from when you would twist during recovery on the right side. Torso flat, hips at 90 degrees. Amost complelely gone now but streamline would improve with feet more together.

The right hand seems to enter with the thumb first and the shoulder rotated internally. Also, the shoulder appears to be lifted towards the right ear. Don't know if this is because [or caused] the right shoulder soreness.

You might view this video to see how "Olympians" use the lats to reach without lifting the shoulder.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NphQCsEikiU

Congrats on the silky style. Best regards. MJM
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  #23  
Old 04-30-2013
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjm View Post
The technique is much improved, fluid and silky. The slight scissor kick is a leftover (IMHO) from when you would twist during recovery on the right side. Torso flat, hips at 90 degrees. Amost complelely gone now but streamline would improve with feet more together.

The right hand seems to enter with the thumb first and the shoulder rotated internally. Also, the shoulder appears to be lifted towards the right ear. Don't know if this is because [or caused] the right shoulder soreness.

You might view this video to see how "Olympians" use the lats to reach without lifting the shoulder.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NphQCsEikiU

Congrats on the silky style. Best regards. MJM
Thanks, I've seen that video and agree with what they say. I do not FEEL like I'm reaching in a compressed position..the lats are connected to the shoulder blade which makes up part of the shoulder joint. The movement is caused by the shoulder blade muscles...the trick is not to retract to much...but too much protraction can cause increased rotator cuff impingement, so it's a delicate balance.

I'll continue to work on that. I also noticed that internal rotation of the right hand on entry and it surprised me!

The former 'twisting' of the hips was something I've had to work hard to correct by activating ab awareness during the rotation and not letting the hips get away from me...the weight loss also helped a lot. previously teh bouyancy of the hips just kept them rolling so I had to work harder to correct it.

I will keep working on the pesky legs!

Thanks for the feedback. :)
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  #24  
Old 04-30-2013
andyinnorway andyinnorway is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier View Post

I still wished that the catch was occurring more progressively though, but this might be an area where we will never agree and it's fine (transition from skate to catch, I like that to be more continuous).
What is the TI line on not having a more progressive catch?

If the swimmer has a good feel for the water and keeps the catch movement at the same speed as the water is flowing will it still effect streamline? I don't see how.

Doesn't a progressive catch gives you more time to get a technically difficult part of the stroke in place with relaxed comfort.

Finally I feel it encourages you to get the arm to a push rather than pull position before the power is applied?

This is the area I am not 100% in agreement with TI, everything else 150%. I even packed my house for removal in TI mode today.

(I loaded the garage with an exact 10m3 rectangle as that's what I've ordered to be taken away, each box is numbered and their contents catalogued - for customs) took a while, but now I can find anything I want at the other end without opening up boxes randomly.
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  #25  
Old 04-30-2013
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Originally Posted by andyinnorway View Post
What is the TI line on not having a more progressive catch?
This is an excellent question.

The way I see it, TI's replacement for a progressive catch is a deeper skating position. To me, these two achieve pretty much the same results.

TI says spear/switch then skate patiently. When time comes, the hand will catch. It's there, so how can it be otherwise! So the concept of patience here implies statically waiting.

On my end I prefer a slower spear which gradually brings the hand in catch position. In this context, there's virtually no skate phase. All in all, the result I believe is pretty much the same: When time comes, hand is in good position to catch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by andyinnorway View Post
Doesn't a progressive catch gives you more time to get a technically difficult part of the stroke in place with relaxed comfort.
No I don't think so. TI-Skate is easier to manage I believe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by andyinnorway View Post
Finally I feel it encourages you to get the arm to a push rather than pull position before the power is applied?
That I'm not sure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by andyinnorway View Post
This is the area I am not 100% in agreement with TI, everything else 150%. I even packed my house for removal in TI mode today.
Awesome!

Like I said, I do like the deeper skate principle. It's reliable I believe. Where you'd see me issuing some concerns though, is for a TI Stroke having a shallow horizontal skate position.
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  #26  
Old 04-30-2013
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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Hi Andy,

Spot on:
Quote:
If the swimmer has a good feel for the water and keeps the catch movement at the same speed as the water is flowing will it still effect streamline? I don't see how.
You're absolutly right here. Think that's what Terry means when he says: Let your arm fall down and carry an arm of water. As hairsplitting, the ideal streamline is disturbed by anything out of it's line, but such a movement will never produce drag.

For me such a movement is very difficult to do. Maybe it's the combination for spearing-falling and no resistance neither forward nor backward.

But what do you and Charles mean with a more progressive catch? Starting more in front (think CoachSuzanne reaches far enough...) or with more force up to a pull instead of the catch movement?

Regards,
Werner
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  #27  
Old 04-30-2013
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WFEGb View Post
But what do you and Charles mean with a more progressive catch? Starting more in front (think CoachSuzanne reaches far enough...) or with more force up to a pull instead of the catch movement?
It's quite simple. I feel a bit bad though to be slowing drifting off the original topic though. I wish Coach Suzanne jumps back in to slap our fingers a bit..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hC8ZZZhabp4

Look at minute 3:10 (precisely). Most strokes that follow, especially (and systematically) when breathing, there's virtually no time where the hands stop in skate position. That's my definition of a progressive catch. And though I didn't quite get the arm falling thing you and Andy were describing, I think it may be the same thing. Hand progressively goes back at same speed that the water flows (roughly, talking images here).

Now same clip, by minute 1:00. You have several strokes there where right hand for instance waits patiently in skate position before doing its move.

Now one may wonder: "Hey but Charles, this is the same swimmer, one of the best TI example to follow. How can it be that you see a slight variation in the way catch be handle?"

Simple. It all depends on the rate. I'm following these models (much more than one might think). I know for example that Terry can be very successful at 65rpm and even more. I am therefore assuming that his timing may change a bit depending on the rate at which he strokes. Which now brings me to exactly pin point this slight difference in point of view between my humble (single man as oppose to an organize system) take and that of TI. As far as I'm concerned, at any speed including the slower rate, hand shouldn't *freeze* in skate position.

Now this is not a criticism, I hope that everyone understands that I'm not criticizing here, but just answering a question.

Last edited by CharlesCouturier : 04-30-2013 at 04:25 PM.
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  #28  
Old 04-30-2013
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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More misunderstandings I think.

Who ever said the catch is a simple t hing to teach? It's not.

We spend time during our 5 1/2 day Coach 1.0 training addressing advanced catching concepts with our new coaches...I feel it's iportant they have a deeper understanding of the catch that what is tought in the weekend workshop. Our coaches need to be able to discuss these things intelligently.

Does that mean they can execute them immediately? Nope, not by any means...yet they learn it there, sometimes for the first time.

In our Coach 2.0 trianing, we jump right into the catch in the first pool session so that through the remainder of the 3 day training they can continue to play with it.

I've thought about this extensively in my recent swimming and there is no way NOT to skate more when moving relatively slower at a fixed tempo vs. skating less at a fixed tempo.

IN other words, suppose I swim 1000 yds at a 1.15 tempo

I can choose to swim that with a variety of pressures at the front of the stroke, and a variety of starting hand speeds.

I think Andy has it correct if I understand him...if the hand is stationairy but the shape of the catch is being formed as the body, shoulder, arm, elbow continue to travel forwards, then the least amount of drag is created (there is still drag...this si the slowest part of the stroke). Then the arm arrives ready for a push phase.

If this shaping is delayed, it taks a bit more effort but there is a bit more rest between strokes.

it's all a game of balance bewteen rest, pressure, effort, speed, etc.

I routinely rehearse swimmign with a nearly full overlap (more than seen here in this clip) vs. more of a Terry style overlap where the catch is nearly formed when the arm enters...teh full range of "front quadrant".

At different tempos this feels different and at different effort levels it feels different as well.

it's a complex, moving, three dimensional exploration of body parts, alignment and water pressure.

Good discussion, and fully TI supported. It's just not discussed much in the blue & yellow book, and not addressed in a standard weekend workshop.

But it's so much more refined t han simply "stroke sooner", "pull harder" or tip your palm down on entry and pull back right away...which is what pretyt much everyone else teaches. If you cannot find the silk in the forward movement there are lost opportunities for speed and progress.

There are simply not enough trained TI coaches to teach all this to our swimmers and as of this point, we lack adequate training materials. This is my attempt to start introducing TI "approved" examples of other swimmers besides the common ones.

another great swimmer to watch is TI Coach Sandra from Hong Kong Unfortunately the easy to find sample on youtube is at a slow stroke rate.

Recently in Hawaii, Sandra & Terry swum side by side and Terry had a tough time matching Sandra's speed. She is the most beautiful TI swimmer taht I know of that I am now trying to emulate. Why? Because she is a woman, about my height and a similar build...I think I can swim like her...but she is FAST!

I have buried on my harddrive some video of her booking it to the first bouy in Kona...ahead of the rest of the 'fast' group, including Terry & Coach Todd. I believe the first quarter mile was swim in 5-6 minutes.
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Suzanne Atkinson, MD
Level 3 USAT Coach
USA Paralympic Triathlon Coach
Coach of 5 time USA Triathlon Triathlete of the Year, Kirsten Sass
Steel City Endurance, LTD
Fresh Freestyle

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  #29  
Old 04-30-2013
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Thanks for keeping us disciplined and on the right path.
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  #30  
Old 04-30-2013
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier View Post
Thanks for keeping us disciplined and on the right path.
Between me and Coach Stu, we'll set you straight. ;)

Thanks for your contributions.
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Level 3 USAT Coach
USA Paralympic Triathlon Coach
Coach of 5 time USA Triathlon Triathlete of the Year, Kirsten Sass
Steel City Endurance, LTD
Fresh Freestyle

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