Efficacy of TI form in rough water

[CoachStuartMcDougal]

Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier

Taken the way you state it, they'd certainly agree, especially if by "swim" you meant "race". They rely on ramp up test to objectively target rates to work on, and to identify at which rate one is likely more efficient whilst racing.

Hey Charles, No - I meant swim, but you can also add race pace, but longer distances, not sprints.

Fixing a falling elbow by speeding up tempo as noted in video, it's hard to believe SS and Dave would endorse swimming slowly correctly before swimming fast. I've had many "falling elbow" swimmers come to me with both fast and slow turnover rates, shoulder driven swinging leading hand recovery, and leading elbow recovery, hip driven stroke (TI). Here are a few simple steps for swimmers to keep the elbow from dropping:

1. Land recovery arm on wide tracks shoulder width or wider. This is a challenge for swimmers with high turnover, swinging arm recovery since most cross over from momentum swinging arm and drop the elbow.
2. Enter recovery arm earlier, spear deep to 3 o'clock position - recovery hand lower than elbow at fwd extension. Don't lay hand flat on surface, or scooping to surface after recovery entry.
3. Lead arm remains on (wide) shoulder width tracks, no lateral side to side slipping through stroke cycle.

This works very well for most swimmers and easy to correct, but takes time and patience. High turnover swimmers need to slow it down to sense elbow and hand positions. Swimmers with double jointed elbows (common) that have imprinted the dropping elbow over many years require much more focus to point elbow out throughout stroke cycle. I find the Finis Forearm Fulcrum really helps swimmer become aware of elbow position.

Stuart
MindBodyAndSWIM

[CoachStuartMcDougal]

Originally Posted by terry

Definitely true. This is why we advocate neurally-focused training. We firmly believe that neural ability is a greater limit than aerobic capacity.

But even these don't satisfy the constellation of factors that ought to be considered. Personal priorities and 'values' should rate highest of all.

My experience is that most people in the field of an OW event, and most in the field of the typical triathlon rate speed or place in the field relatively low in their values system. As is true of the huge fields in marathon runs today, only a small minority see themselves as 'competitive.' The majority are more interested in accomplishing something that feels personally meaningful, intrinsically satisfying, health-promoting and, to be enjoyed with people of like mind.

Well said Terry. Some of my most satisfying experiences as a TI Coach is taking a swimmer who can barely make it across the length of a 25y pool, and 6-8 weeks later doing their first mile+ swim in the ocean. And in a more recent case the same swimmer doing IM Cour'dAlene sub 14h. 2.4m swim was 1:20. The look of gratitude helping them conquer something they thought was impossible. Life changing moment - it's is worth its weight in gold to be part of that process with each swimmer.

Stuart

[CharlesCouturier]

Originally Posted by terry

Podium finishers seldom look to TI for help. Helping people like Christian have experiences like this is my greatest source of satisfaction. I've written this many times previously on this forum, yet certain critics persist in applying their narrow standards to what we do.

If an ITU podium "wanna be on", or better a Rio 2016 "wish to go" came to see you, ie hey why not dealing with the boss directly if available, money no object part of it repaid as sponsorship visibility, see the picture.

5'7, 5'6 worth of arm span male, sometimes missing the pack, missing the pack all the time as soon as water conditions get rough, been plateaued for 2 years in the water, running performances improving and same for bike.

How would you coach him? More specifically, what would be lowish rate work and highish rate work. In which range would you keep him. And during threshold sets or whatever you call the process of getting to T1 with lead swimmers, that sort of swimming. Which rates would you be aiming for?

(I'm interested in any TI coach's opinion obviously, and really just casual around a good beer in a pub chatting)

[terry]

Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier

5'7, 5'6 worth of arm span male, sometimes missing the pack, missing the pack all the time as soon as water conditions get rough, been plateaued for 2 years in the water, running performances improving and same for bike.

How would you coach him?

(I'm interested in any TI coach's opinion obviously, and really just casual around a good beer in a pub chatting)

Charles
I find it satisfying to dialogue with you because you do clearly give that sense of genuine interest in exchanging views--and perhaps finding the common ground that almost always exist even when perspectives may differ.

In my earlier post which noted that our focus is seldom on podium finishers, I took pains to note that it's mainly because it's exceedingly rare that one will seek us out. In part it's because usually they're doing pretty well already and are inclined to stay with what's working. In part because what's working for them--in swimming--is, as you've noted, something very different from what they perceive as the TI way.

However, I have no doubt whatsoever that--given the opportunity to provide some coaching to an elite triathlete, even one who swims near the top of the pack, I could find a way to help them, while remaining absolutely true to TI Methodology. This confidence comes from having coached swimmers who are far faster than any current triathlete. And partly from having so much OW experience myself.

Your query is quite timely because there's an elite triathlete who lives in New Paltz, who was two lanes away from me 30 minutes ago in our 50m pool. She was USTA rookie of the year a few years back, and has since won several major races--including the NYC Triathlon more than once.

I've offered to introduce her to TT practice. She has expressed interest, most recently last weekend when we shared a lane. She recently had a baby and is thus in a lower-key phase right now. I'll see if we can begin this week and will start a new thread to chronicle some of what we do.

As for that 5'6" maie, I can offer Nicholas Sterghos, who has had consistent podium finishes the last few years. He won the Armed Forces Triathlon earlier this month.
Nicholas joined the West Point Tri team at the beginning of 2009. In his first tri Philadelphia International June 2009, he swam 27+. Same course two years later he went 18:13. I've never seen any other triathlete improve that much in two years -- something on the order of Joe Novak's improvement in 50-100 free a decade earlier at Army.
But where Joe is 6'4" Nicholas is 5'6"
Here is video that describes Nicholas's training and shows the two of us swimming side by side in Mirror Lake (LP IM course)--with him matching me stroke for stroke with a wingspan about 6" less. The part referencing Nicholas starts at about 1:10.

[CharlesCouturier]

Some chops

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L24hCg2mNgk

[Talvi]

Originally Posted by terry

Here is video that describes Nicholas's training and shows the two of us swimming side by side in Mirror Lake

Nicholas is on your right, right? Have to say that in the 10 second section from 1:32 - 1:42 he looks ... awesome, really beautiful!

[terry]

Keeping in mind that Nicholas is only 5'6" and I'm 6'0" -- with a rather long and efficient stroke for my height--it is indeed impressive that he can match me while we both swim at same -- semi-brisk -- Tempo.

This clip was taken only two years after he quit being a runner, because of chronic stress fractures, and showed up to his first Army Triathlon swim practice.

[Talvi]

I take that as a "yes" then

[POLIDORI]

One can hold little hope in convincing the rest after watching the 1500 m freestyle final with Yang and Cochrane as the main carachters.

It was so evident, and for the first time he was clearly defied, that the Chinese based his performance on technique, enlarging every stroke, not using his legs much (which consumes much more oxygen than propulsion you get in return), relaxing to a certain point, entering the water with relaxing arms, more or less, and holding a little extra for the end, while the Canadian gave it all based on his stamina, breath, natural and trained strength, which ended up giving up and letting the Chinese go ahead as he accelerated a little bit and used his legs more at the end of the race (3-4 last turns).

[cpa_pfs]

This is my first post on this forum.

I find all this "debate" moot. I have tried and tried for decades and decades to learn to swim. UNSUCCESSFULLY. I have run dozens of marathons ... no problem. I regularly cycle 100 mpw. Yet I could not swim.

I couldn't swim to the end of a 25M pool. Even with restarts along the way when I got there I was winded. How does that happen? I BQ when I race marathons.

Then I found Total Immersion. Swimming finally makes sense to me. I have done my first tri and am now looking at my first HIM.

So all this questioning of the validity of TI is white noise to me. I am finally swimming.