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  #61  
Old 01-05-2016
sclim sclim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
thats a lot of sculling Sclim...
Is it? I have no idea what the proper amount of sculling should be. It's still not coming instinctively, so I have no problem with the idea that I should keep on practicing it a lot more.

This morning I repeated yesterday's set for 1000m total, 200m of it sculling. (Hmmm, that's 20% not 25%... math is difficult while underwater lol) That's not excessive, is it? I quit because my brain was tired, and because I had to share a lane with someone who had to keep passing me while I sculled (he hit me once backstroking), not because my body was complaining unbearably.

During the whole stroke swimming lengths I found I had lost the awareness of slippage (and corresponding awareness of non-slippage -- it's hard to remember exactly what it felt like, now that I can't exactly feel it) but I still was able to hold on to 1/2 to 2/3 of the small SPL improvement I acquired yesterday, so something is still working even though my conscious awareness of it is gone again, or at least not as intense. I suspect it will go on like this on again/ off again for a while during the skill acquisition stage. No problem, just keep on going regardless, trying to keep the "awareness radar" switched on.

Last edited by sclim : 01-06-2016 at 02:12 AM.
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  #62  
Old 01-06-2016
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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Its not excessive, just wanted to warn for possible negative side effects.
You have to find out if that happens or not.

THe whole purpose is to make certain movements automatic so you can think about other things in full stroke.
Just like driving a car becomes automatic so you can concentrate on other things (your phone for example)
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  #63  
Old 01-06-2016
sclim sclim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
Its not excessive, just wanted to warn for possible negative side effects.
You have to find out if that happens or not.

THe whole purpose is to make certain movements automatic so you can think about other things in full stroke.
Just like driving a car becomes automatic so you can concentrate on other things (your phone for example)
OK, warning noted. Right now it's still difficult enough that I have to really think about it to do it sort of correctly. But now easy enough so when my 200m of swimming is done and my sculling 50m comes up I don't think "@#%%?*" any more, but even some pleasant anticipation at an opportunity again to do a minor challenge different from trying to maintain my low SPL. Rather like wanting to pick up the next cryptic crossword puzzle to do.

So I still have a ways to go before it becomes fully automatic (a telling symptom is that my trunk alignment during sculling is all over the place -- but that's partly because I'm still experimenting, more pull here, less angle there, etc).

The whole stroke swimming still drifts in and out, mostly quite low SPL relative to prior values, but occasionally spectacular loss of form for no obvious reason (or rather loss of balance, sometimes sustained, with no warning or explanation except for non-specific brain failure) and and at other times sometimes best ever SPL, without specifically trying for the best ever SPL!

BTW, from January 1st 2016, the traffic fine for getting caught driving in Alberta (Canada) while using your phone to talk or text is over $200 plus demerit points lol!

Last edited by sclim : 01-06-2016 at 08:39 PM.
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  #64  
Old 01-08-2016
sclim sclim is offline
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Today I finished a 5 day Monday-Friday stretch of whole stroke 100m x 2, left Superman right scull 25 m, right Superman left scull 25 m = 250; 4 sets = 1000m. Getting better at sculling. Last 2 days I added tumble-turns for the swimming, having only done 4-5 tumble-turns before in my life. After the 2nd tumble-turn of each swim portion my core, concentration and form completely collapse!

Ironically, the sculling segment now becomes a welcome zone of acceptable competence, a cocoon of calm to restore my mental equilibrium. I'll risk "practicing struggle" for a while and keep the tumble-turns in, to see if I can overcome the mental and maybe physical overload, and restore my prior whole stroke swimming balance and timing. Meanwhile I feel really exhausted. But I have been also biking or running for an hour the last 3 days.

Last edited by sclim : 01-11-2016 at 05:42 PM.
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  #65  
Old 01-11-2016
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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about that recovery Sclim,

this is the anti hesitation at the front recovery.
A bit like the Boomer recovery
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drj5ujem1Yk
Feels powerfull, but is at the edge of front quadrant.
When doing catchup your recovery is already done when you catch so you cant use this mechanism.
You also have to have an anchor to launch the recovery without pushing the body back. (the extra paddle surface helps here)

if you look at the underwater action, you also see she kicks a bit more fiercefull at the moment she starts to accelerate that recoveryarm forward.(at the underwater paddle side)
Thats the leg anchor for that ballistic recovery. So the arm paddle prevents the body from sliding back, the leg kick prevents the horizontal balance to be disturbed.
Its an aquatic ratched mechanism thtat gives some kinetic energy to the recovering arm.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 01-11-2016 at 03:04 PM.
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  #66  
Old 01-11-2016
sclim sclim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
about that recovery Sclim,

this is the anti hesitation at the front recovery.
A bit like the Boomer recovery
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drj5ujem1Yk
Feels powerfull, but is at the edge of front quadrant.
When doing catchup your recovery is already done when you catch so you cant use this mechanism.
You also have to have an anchor to launch the recovery without pushing the body back. (the extra paddle surface helps here)

if you look at the underwater action, you also see she kicks a bit more fiercefull at the moment she starts to accelerate that recoveryarm forward.(at the underwater paddle side)
Thats the leg anchor for that ballistic recovery. So the arm paddle prevents the body from sliding back, the leg kick prevents the horizontal balance to be disturbed.
Its an aquatic ratched mechanism thtat gives some kinetic energy to the recovering arm.
I see what you mean about the extra hard kick at the beginning of the rapid forward recovery action, but it is also to prevent this action from stalling the forward momentum or even maybe sliding back (the hard leg kick is not only providing horizontal stability but also maintaining the forward momentum, right?)

It's only a drill, so she slows down on the other half arm cycle (the one without the paddle) when she's doing the drill. What I don't get is that if it only works when she has the paddle on the catching hand, what is the merit of a drill that requires a piece of equipment that is absent when you are doing real whole stroke.

If I understand you right, this style of stoke discards the idea of (some moment where both hands are in the) front quadrant, substituting for this the principle that the lead hand catch happens early and there is absolutely no lost time in the cycle where there is no arm propulsion going on. Would this be more applicable to short distance sprints?
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  #67  
Old 01-11-2016
sclim sclim is offline
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Today I added back the use of the Tempo Trainer in my mixed whole stroke and sculling sets. Strictly speaking this has nothing to do with sculling per se, but it's my thread so I can hijack it if I want lol.

The reason was that after initial improvement in my spl consistency during the whole stroke portions I was noticing some variations in cycle length as I fatigued due to the recent addition of new tumble turns.

The Tempo Trainer threw a whole bunch of difficulty into the mix. I had gotten very familiar with the use of TT last year but had stopped using it for many months as I tried to learn the mechanism of the high elbow catch well, so it was not merely unfamiliarity with the TT. The whole stroke with the TT at 1.30 sec went well for 25 m then fell completely apart after the first tumble turn. I realise now that I was straining a little to do the whole sculling catch properly within the time frame allotted.

In retrospect, there were too many new things going on. I finally ditched the tumble turns -- the least essential component to my learning, in my judgement, and (in deference to my fear of cheating at the turns) at least forced myself only to have a very brief grab at the pool end to turnaround.

I finally settled on a TT interval of 1.40 sec during the whole stroke swim portions, and these started to regain a sense of consistency. I was not getting the SPL quite as low and there was still some SPL decay towards the end of the 100m due to the TT constraints. I realise now I was pulling harder and in a hurry than I needed to instead of using the technique I had learned. I have to remember more is less.

Through out all this confusion and semi-panic in the whole-stroke explorations, the sculling portions (2 x 25m of sculling after 200 m of swimming) now come as welcome breaks to reset and regain my mental equilibrium!

Last edited by sclim : 01-11-2016 at 06:17 PM.
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  #68  
Old 01-11-2016
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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I guess the legkick is used 90% for correcting the balance disturbtion caused by the pulling and accelerating recovery arm action and 10% for propulsion.

When there is a big paddle on the anchoring arm the lock on the water becomes more extreme. So its easier to get the idea of throwing your body over a fixed support.
Once you regognize this feeling you can try to recreate it without the paddle as good as possible, also in full stroke doing it at both sides.

I guess its mostly used for short distance, but there most be some of the same effect in all those high strokerate distance swimmers too.
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  #69  
Old 01-12-2016
andyinnorway andyinnorway is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
about that recovery Sclim,

this is the anti hesitation at the front recovery.
A bit like the Boomer recovery
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drj5ujem1Yk
Feels powerfull, but is at the edge of front quadrant.
When doing catchup your recovery is already done when you catch so you cant use this mechanism.
You also have to have an anchor to launch the recovery without pushing the body back. (the extra paddle surface helps here)

if you look at the underwater action, you also see she kicks a bit more fiercefull at the moment she starts to accelerate that recoveryarm forward.(at the underwater paddle side)
Thats the leg anchor for that ballistic recovery. So the arm paddle prevents the body from sliding back, the leg kick prevents the horizontal balance to be disturbed.
Its an aquatic ratched mechanism thtat gives some kinetic energy to the recovering arm.
Amazed that someone moving this well through the water has only 29 views.

Sclim - you challenge yourself so consistently I think you're going to be an awesome swimmer before too long. Bravo. Do you have a pace yet where you can swim SPL consistent lengths?
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  #70  
Old 01-12-2016
sclim sclim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andyinnorway View Post
Sclim - you challenge yourself so consistently I think you're going to be an awesome swimmer before too long. Bravo. Do you have a pace yet where you can swim SPL consistent lengths?
Thanks! I challenge myself all right, but I have to really focus on the journey so far, as the results such as they are, have been really slow in arriving lol!

Today I had a setback because yesterday I fell backwards onto the arm of a church pew (martial arts, not religious activity) and really dinged a rib in the back of my chest. It hurts to pull hard, and I hoped I could finesse this force limiter to teach myself not to pull hard but rather to pull efficiently. Didn't work. I quit early today.

However today I was able to keep an average of 22 SPL over a 100m distance with Tempo set at 1.40 sec (not tumble turns). Allowing 2 beats for push-off glide this works out to about 2:15/100m, although I think I should still be focussing on stroke efficiency, not speed.

This is initially quite discouraging considering a year ago I was achieving 22 SPL over 50 m*. But that was only for 50 m, and as I recall I was quite fatigued at the end, and this was without tempo trainer, likely a little slower tempo. A year ago I considered it an accomplishment to do single length repeats with lots of rest in 20 - 21 SPL, so I guess there is some progress.

*PS I checked back in my posts of my "modified fist drill" a year ago when I was doing a drill of 50 m fist swimming and following immediately 50 m whole stroke swimming. I was getting 26 SPL fist swimming and 24 SPL regular swimming, all done without TT. So this is actually improved somewhat.

Last edited by sclim : 01-12-2016 at 08:46 PM.
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