Total Immersion Forums  

Go Back   Total Immersion Forums > Freestyle
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #41  
Old 12-20-2015
sclim sclim is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,499
sclim
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
Hey Sclim, Sea hiker has an excellent blog serie about catch and ¨pull.
This guy has learnt a lot since his first shaky swim footage from 3-5 years ago.
The descriptions all roughly match my personal experiences with this stuff, so it must be good ;-)
He is originally from a TI background so its all pretty faniliar.
http://www.seahiker.com/9-ways-to-im...l-part-1-of-3/
http://www.seahiker.com/9-ways-to-im...l-part-2-of-3/
http://www.seahiker.com/9-ways-to-im...l-part-3-of-3/

youtube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjzkZl6FDAc
His medium tempo still rips through the water too much TI beginner style, but on the whole he is saying good things.
Hey ZT, this is a goldmine of detailed and specific information on catch and stroke. It's densely packed and requires a lot of careful reading and re-reading, but has enough information to work out the action and timing on your own! I'm not fully through it yet, but I've digested quite a bit so far, and I'll keep coming back to re-check this information. Thanks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
Since you understand Dutch by now,
swimming lessons from Kromowidjojo and Jacco Verhaeren
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaledn9sZWI (sculling from 4 min5)
Haha, it's almost true, at least well enough to understand what he's getting at without translation! Hey, not just sculling, but also from 4:50 onwards, a remarkable reprise of Sea Hiker's "Diamond Shape" double arm stroke! Heel goed! Dank je wel!
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 12-31-2015
sclim sclim is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,499
sclim
Default

After a week off Christmas and visitors at my house, etc, this morning I returned to the pool this morning. Rather than struggling to find my form again, I was astounded to find from the first lap I had excellent retention of all the hard won skills from before and then some!

In particular, I found I was acutely aware, for a change, of moving my vertical forearm backwards for as much as possible, rather than merely rotating it around my shoulder pivot. Also, during this manoeuvre I was aware of water slipping away from or out of my (forearm and hand) grasp, so I was able to adjust my technique in real time so as to minimise this "slippage". This must be the famous "feel" for the water that I have heard about for so long, and tried for so long to experience, but have never actually felt till now! If I keep on feeling it to this degree, I finally have a real time tool to adjust my technique so as to maximise purchase or grip on "heavy water" as I anchor, or as I "push" on the water depending on point of view, rather than trying to get my hands and arms in the prescribed positions that I have being taught and hoping for the best.

My stroke count per pool length went down by about one compared to the usual number under similar circumstances, even though during these laps I had not paid as much attention to other niceties of perfection as I should have (and which were usually good for further stroke number reduction if they were being performed properly), which to me suggests that the feel for the water has allowed me the ability to quite significantly increase my stroke distance, particularly since I was not able fully to optimise my hold on water in real time on every stroke, even though I was aware of the spillage of water when it happened.

I announce this breakthrough in this thread because I have no good insight or any other reason to explain how this awareness suddenly came into being this morning, except as an eventual consequence somehow of the sculling drill I have been doing. I had been told that this might happen, but it seems such a magical happening at the moment that it is difficult for me to say with absolute intuitive confidence that I see it clearly how the sculling movements in the front quadrant have led to my being able to perceive water being "held" by my forearm and hand, or conversely when that "holding" was failing, in other words, when the water was slipping out of that "hold".

It was not because of me using any extra strength I had after the long week's rest. In fact I quit today after only 500m of swimming and 100 m of sculling because I was tired and a little sore after (downhill) skiing hard all day yesterday -- and this was only the second day back skiing this season, and I returned to skiing only last season after a decade and a half off!
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 12-31-2015
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,898
Zenturtle
Default

great you have already improved your percieved grip on the water after a relative short practice time.
I think the main change in your action is that you are more aware of you hand elbow place in space now, falling back on muscle memory from the sculling drills.

There is still a lot of improvement possible offcourse, and you will become painfully aware of the limits of your flexibility making it impossible to grab as much water as you would like.
But keep at it and this will get ( a little) better.
If you have a good anchor, you can start playing how to control it to make your body corkscrew past that solid spot.
Another focal point is how to connect you recovery arm movement with the anchored arm.
And the relative timing of all these things....Not bending the body while you go past it,,,,etc
Plenty Kaizen left.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 12-31-2015 at 07:09 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 12-31-2015
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,244
CharlesCouturier
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
I want to look cool in the pool so dont do this silly stuff, but if you could figure out the outcome of this age old debate...
Let ne know what you think is the best path to pull...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1NaWPyNtdk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLyfwqJgUTw
Now you know where Phelps gets his s pull from. He is the fly guy.
funny that you should reuse these demo clips to support an argument in favor of some form of sculling to reduce slip. I think it's a very sound exemple, as these folks (first, Thibeault, a French elite flyer having a PB over 200m fly of 2min02) and Catherine, my assistant have exceptionnal feel for water. They were doing "this" not because I asked them to, but rather because they felt they could "stop" their fall using that motion. Now though, it's important to keep in mind that the sculling motion at Butterfly will vary in width based on the stroke rate. The higher the rate, the less time one has to pull other than straight line.

To the best of my knowledge, Huub Toussaint remains the only researcher that was able to measure or quantify the exact power (force applied in hope to move forward) lost in moving water backward. Really. Or stated otherwise, he could measure the power it takes to move forward, and also quantify, from this overall power demand, the portion which is being lost in moving waters backward.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sclim View Post
My stroke count per pool length went down by about one compared to the usual number under similar circumstances, even though during these laps I had not paid as much attention to other niceties of perfection as I should have (and which were usually good for further stroke number reduction if they were being performed properly), which to me suggests that the feel for the water has allowed me the ability to quite significantly increase my stroke distance, particularly since I was not able fully to optimise my hold on water in real time on every stroke, even though I was aware of the spillage of water when it happened.
Doesn't surprise me.
Work on Sculling generally results into quick improvements, when you've never worked on them before.
Not sure if I shared here, but my most astounishing sculling session happened after I tried a new way of teaching it. One of the subjects being tested was the one with the worst feel for water on earth. I mean, this guy doesn't feel (or wouldn't feel) anything.

I used a dryland approach, to teach feel for water lol
2 by 2. One holding a kickboard, with the right angle. The other person facing the board. The board must be angled in a way so that the other person puts hand and forearm on it achieving catch position. To teach sculling, ask the person to caress the board in a left/right motion. The thing that many people don't get, is the correct angle. Phenomenon is identical to if I was asking you to drive your car, using your left foot to brake. Right foot is specialied into extra fine motions, which provides with decelerating progressively. Left foot isn't trained for that. When it presses, it presses. CAr doesn't decelarate progressively. Same with untrained hands learning sculling. Generally, the angles are too step. So this exercice with a kick board gets people to ingrain the exact angle of attack.

After this session, 16 persons having participated to the dryland experiment went to the pool. They could all do the sculling in catch position perfectly, even our feelingless guy. This guy then swam a 100m relaxed, and achieved a PB by about 10sec, that day, effortless, as a result of better feeeling waters.

---
Happy New Year to all of my friends on TI

Last edited by CharlesCouturier : 12-31-2015 at 05:38 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 12-31-2015
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
Coach
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,453
CoachSuzanne
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier View Post
funny that you should reuse these demo clips to support an argument in favor of some form of sculling to reduce slip. I think it's a very sound exemple, as these folks (first, Thibeault, a French elite flyer having a PB over 200m fly of 2min02) and Catherine, my assistant have exceptionnal feel for water. They were doing "this" not because I asked them to, but rather because they felt they could "stop" their fall using that motion. Now though, it's important to keep in mind that the sculling motion at Butterfly will vary in width based on the stroke rate. The higher the rate, the less time one has to pull other than straight line.

To the best of my knowledge, Huub Toussaint remains the only researcher that was able to measure or quantify the exact power (force applied in hope to move forward) lost in moving water backward. Really. Or stated otherwise, he could measure the power it takes to move forward, and also quantify, from this overall power demand, the portion which is being lost in moving waters backward.


Doesn't surprise me.
Work on Sculling generally results into quick improvements, when you've never worked on them before.
Not sure if I shared here, but my most astounishing sculling session happened after I tried a new way of teaching it. One of the subjects being tested was the one with the worst feel for water on earth. I mean, this guy doesn't feel (or wouldn't feel) anything.

I used a dryland approach, to teach feel for water lol
2 by 2. One holding a kickboard, with the right angle. The other person facing the board. The board must be angled in a way so that the other person puts hand and forearm on it achieving catch position. To teach sculling, ask the person to caress the board in a left/right motion. The thing that many people don't get, is the correct angle. Phenomenon is identical to if I was asking you to drive your car, using your left foot to brake. Right foot is specialied into extra fine motions, which provides with decelerating progressively. Left foot isn't trained for that. When it presses, it presses. CAr doesn't decelarate progressively. Same with untrained hands learning sculling. Generally, the angles are too step. So this exercice with a kick board gets people to ingrain the exact angle of attack.

After this session, 16 persons having participated to the dryland experiment went to the pool. They could all do the sculling in catch position perfectly, even our feelingless guy. This guy then swam a 100m relaxed, and achieved a PB by about 10sec, that day, effortless, as a result of better feeeling waters.

---
Happy New Year to all of my friends on TI
I love this post Charles!
__________________
Suzanne Atkinson, MD
Level 3 USAT Coach
USA Paralympic Triathlon Coach
Coach of 5 time USA Triathlon Triathlete of the Year, Kirsten Sass
Steel City Endurance, LTD
Fresh Freestyle

Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 12-31-2015
sclim sclim is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,499
sclim
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier View Post
2 by 2. One holding a kickboard, with the right angle. The other person facing the board. The board must be angled in a way so that the other person puts hand and forearm on it achieving catch position. To teach sculling, ask the person to caress the board in a left/right motion. The thing that many people don't get, is the correct angle. Phenomenon is identical to if I was asking you to drive your car, using your left foot to brake. Right foot is specialied into extra fine motions, which provides with decelerating progressively. Left foot isn't trained for that. When it presses, it presses. CAr doesn't decelarate progressively. Same with untrained hands learning sculling. Generally, the angles are too step. So this exercice with a kick board gets people to ingrain the exact angle of attack.
I'd like to go through this myself, Charles; but I don't quite get it from the above description -- can't visualise it. Is there a video or another explanation somewhere?
Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier View Post
After this session, 16 persons having participated to the dryland experiment went to the pool. They could all do the sculling in catch position perfectly, even our feelingless guy. This guy then swam a 100m relaxed, and achieved a PB by about 10sec, that day, effortless, as a result of better feeeling waters.
I would have said before that this sounds pretty unbelievable. But after my recent personal experience, I'm a believer!
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 01-01-2016
s.sciame s.sciame is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Rome, Italy
Posts: 479
s.sciame
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
I love this post Charles!
Who on earth doesn't love his posts? ;-)

Welcome back Charles, happy new year everybody!

Salvo
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 01-01-2016
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,898
Zenturtle
Default

I think he means bend the arm over the kickboardplane and rub over the plane with your palm only under a slight angle.
Sculling is also called the windshieldwiper drill.

Sclim learning instinctive sculling same way like Karatekid is learning instinctive self defense moves now Haha
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bg21M2zwG9Q

Wax on, wax off,...

Last edited by Zenturtle : 01-01-2016 at 12:36 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 01-01-2016
sclim sclim is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,499
sclim
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
I think he means bend the arm over the kickboardplane and rub over the plane with your palm only under a slight angle.
Sculling is also called the windshieldwiper drill.

Sclim learning instinctive sculling same way like Karatekid is learning instinctive self defense moves now Haha
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bg21M2zwG9Q

Wax on, wax off,...
Oh, I get it. The "instructor" prescribes the correct plane for the forearm wipe angle. That means he must prescribe and adjust the angle for the return wipe in the opposite direction and the same thing for the forward direction again.

So it is necessarily a paired drill where one is knowledgable and skilled, teaching the other who is not. It is the "instructor" training the "student". So as a solo student I can't do it by myself, at least not by this paired method.

Never mind; because I am already somewhat moving forward on the strength of my own sculling ability, I think the most responsive instructor for me now will be the water itself, and of course, the innate universal interaction of water, gravity, viscosity and momentum through the laws of hydrodynamics to teach me by speeding me up whenever I get it right and slowing me whenever I screw up etc. I suppose now for me the task is to refine the subtle interactive adjustments of velocity, force, angle and amplitude for optimum efficiency, and eventually to integrate this experience and knowledge into "feel".

("Wipe in, wipe out...").

Last edited by sclim : 01-01-2016 at 05:06 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 01-01-2016
Danny Danny is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,442
Danny
Default

Happy New Year Charles! We missed you!
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are Off
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 07:09 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.