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  #31  
Old 12-15-2015
sclim sclim is offline
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Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
Doesnt look like too much.

sculling in skate ?
So you are sculling on the high side of your body? You should be front sculling at your low side or flat if thats too difficult.
Backend sculling can be done on the high side.
Doing everything flat is better than sculling at the wrong bodyroll side.
Ideally your sculling arm position matches your bodyroll angle at that moment of the stroke.
Stay as close as possible to the normal stroke.
(I intend to increase the sculling volume slowly as I get used to it.)

Yes, I'm sculling with the high arm, with the low hand being the passive lead ("spearing") hand. Yeah, I know you referred initially (among many other variants) to the Dutch coaching video where he taught the flat on face,

http://lac.asjes.com/oefening%20zwem...deel_.flv.html

alternating hand sculling with pull-buoy between legs method. However I found it too challenging to get enough sculling between breaths.

Then I was referred to another video (by s.sciame, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JE4HtrpsrfE) where the swimmers swam face down and (from the Superman position) alternately left and right performed a (Vertical Forearm) catch with a slight introductory sculling motion, but didn't follow that stroke through, merely keeping both hands in the front quadrant as the catches were alternated, then occasionally breaking into a short sequence of normal alternating whole stroke.

Then I saw a video where the demonstrator started in skate (flutter kicking), then rolled into catch, then merely flutter kicked in the catch position for a while then rolled back into skate, all the while using the same hand. The drill was to imprint the early phase of the catch from skate to catch.

So I started from the position of the Dutch video, then rolled into catch position (maintaining the lower lead hand) with the higher forearm as vertical as I could manage, and realised that this was the elusive position that I was often missing in the water as I was setting up the catch). So, adapting the drills from the last two paragraphs*, I adopted the freeze-frame catch position with the vertical forearm, and decided to use this vertical forearm as a windshield wiper sculling paddle to simultaneously develop my sculling technique, my balance on edge position, and to imprint the catch position with the vertical forearm. I'm using a small length of pool spaghetti tube between my knees to give me a little leg buoyancy but not too much, and to immobilise my legs, so the forward propulsion comes only from the efficiency of my sculling.

I really think this is helping me imprint the EVF catch position, and feel normal with the sculling motion as part of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
Ideally your sculling arm position matches your bodyroll angle at that moment of the stroke.
Stay as close as possible to the normal stroke.
Hmm, perhaps this high arm catch position that I'm practicing is being used too far into the roll; in real life maybe I would be earlier in the roll than this when the catch is fully formed. So may be I should lessen the on edge angle when travelling in the sculling position.

Or maybe, because I am not actively rolling while I'm practicing this drill it doesn't matter so much exactly at what position I freeze the frame and arbitrarily choose an edge angle in which to practice the static angle drill.

Maybe I can take a page out of the second drill I mentioned above, and do my drill as before, but after a short segment of sculling, transform my upper sculling hand through an underwater recovery straight to a spear, (initiating a roll) to become the new lead hand on the bottom side, as the old lead hand does a brief lateral scull into a catch, then, ending up on the new high side in catch position, I continue sculling for a while with the new sculling hand before repeating the alternating sequence. This would have the merit of alternately performing the catch with the old lead hand in the context of introducing a new substitute spearing lead hand and a background body roll that mimics real swimming.

*PS I was also partly inspired by the drill that Coach Suzanne Atkinson used to help cure student Sam Cook of a collapsing elbow due to overly strong lats pull:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeHQyqI7zq0
This was the last drill on the video she called "Catch and Push", where she made Sam swim in a Skate-like position, with gentle flutter kick and low lead hand, with the high hand in the catch position, then continued into the push part of the propulsion stroke, gently so the elbow didn't collapse, then immediately recovering underwater, cycling back to the previous catch position, to repeat. I reasoned, again, that the ideal vertical forearm catch position (the starting point for this drill) was one that I was largely missing; so using it as the central point of my drill, except transforming that static position to one of side to side sculling, but retaining the vertical forearm (without the subsequent push follow-through) would be helpful.

Last edited by sclim : 12-15-2015 at 04:39 AM.
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  #32  
Old 12-15-2015
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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hmm, have to read this and think a bit about it.
If its already helping you it cant be that bad. Maybe you can gradually move your sculling further up in the bodyroll, I mean roll the high side back into normal position comparable with normal relative arm-bodyroll angle over the course of time.
Its much easier to scull your way for the shoulder, but it doesnt teach combining the power of connecting pull to bodyroll very well, which is very important in my view.
Front sculling with a sunk shoulder at that side is only possible with a heavyly inward rotated shoulder combined with a lifted shoulder complex and straight back.
Very very abnormal. But thatis what Sun Yang is doing.
How far do you want to go in this direction and what can your shoulder do?
If you keep it on wide tracks it all is a bit easier, but everybody has to decide for themselfes how far to go.

Ok, we want to swim inside out dont we?
Than the bodyroll is the foundation to reference the arm and leg movements to.
At the time the bodyrolli is at its start, maximum amplitude, the extended arm is on the low side.Say this is the right side.
Halfway the bodyroll, the body is flat, and the arm is perpendicular to body, under the shoulder.
At the end of the bodyroll, the right side of the body has become the high side, and the arm is at the end of the push phase.

Why should we want to practice front sculling in a bodyroll position that belongs to a back end armposition/sculling? Thats building muscle awareness that doesnt translate well to normal stroke.
To combine the front sculling with a deep side arm is difficult. Perhaps too much to ask for.
Next best thing is to do the front sculling swimming flat. You can do all the sculling swimming flat. Making compromises on the fornt end , and making compromises on the back end.
Its not difficult to mimic the arm-bodyroll relation from the shoulder down, so no need to compromise there, but also not so much to learn there, cause back sculling is not so difficult. Troubles usually start at the front.
So mid scull when flat, endscull with sculling bodyside 45 degrees rotated up.

Why stop with only arm focussed sculling and not imprint the all important connection arm-bodyroll?
So . start scull flat, arm under shoulder, and scull to back while rotating the body to 45 degress. Pull and rotate your body past that planted arm, thats the idea.
Drive the rotation with hips/kick, and more or less with your sculling arm. The more solid you can make the water feel ,the better.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 12-15-2015 at 04:03 PM.
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  #33  
Old 12-15-2015
sclim sclim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
hmm, have to read this and think a bit about it.
If its already helping you it cant be that bad. Maybe you can gradually move your sculling further up in the bodyroll, I mean roll the high side back into normal position comparable with normal relative arm-bodyroll angle over the course of time.
OK. Actually experimenting today did a bit of that. Was more difficult due to shoulder limitations, but doable, will push for more and more flat position in front sculling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
Its much easier to scull your way for the shoulder, but it doesnt teach combining the power of connecting pull to bodyroll very well, which is very important in my view.
I get your point now: hopefully with my further modifications I can capture the optimum benefit of this activity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
Front sculling with a sunk shoulder at that side is only possible with a heavyly inward rotated shoulder combined with a lifted shoulder complex and straight back.
Very very abnormal. But thatis what Sun Yang is doing.
How far do you want to go in this direction and what can your shoulder do?
If you keep it on wide tracks it all is a bit easier, but everybody has to decide for themselfes how far to go.

Ok, we want to swim inside out dont we?
Than the bodyroll is the foundation to reference the arm and leg movements to.
At the time the bodyrolli is at its start, maximum amplitude, the extended arm is on the low side.Say this is the right side.
Halfway the bodyroll, the body is flat, and the arm is perpendicular to body, under the shoulder.
At the end of the bodyroll, the right side of the body has become the high side, and the arm is at the end of the push phase.

Why should we want to practice front sculling in a bodyroll position that belongs to a back end armposition/sculling? Thats building muscle awareness that doesnt translate well to normal stroke.
To combine the front sculling with a deep side arm is difficult. Perhaps too much to ask for.
Next best thing is to do the front sculling swimming flat. You can do all the sculling swimming flat. Making compromises on the fornt end , and making compromises on the back end.
Its not difficult to mimic the arm-bodyroll relation from the shoulder down, so no need to compromise there, but also not so much to learn there, cause back sculling is not so difficult. Troubles usually start at the front.
So mid scull when flat, endscull with sculling bodyside 45 degrees rotated up.

Why stop with only arm focussed sculling and not imprint the all important connection arm-bodyroll?
So . start scull flat, arm under shoulder, and scull to back while rotating the body to 45 degress. Pull and rotate your body past that planted arm, thats the idea.
Drive the rotation with hips/kick, and more or less with your sculling arm. The more solid you can make the water feel ,the better.
OK, a further idea to try once I get the basic drill down solidly. Hmm this makes it very close to Coach Suzanne's "Catch and Push" drill, except for the fact that I'm sculling all the way through (I guess -- we're making this up as we go along, aren't we?), and that I have my legs clamping a small section of pool spaghetti. The sculling on the push portion may be helpful in forcing me to prolong and slow the push section, which I tend to rush. On the other hand maybe, once I cure my rushing, I can cruise along in sculling motion in the flat catch position, then roll and push exactly as in swimming whole stroke. Oh, wait, I've still got a pool spaghetti between my knees. Maybe once my sculling improves I can ditch the pool spaghetti and transition directly from catch to roll+push. Then I'll have 2 sequences practiced: lead hand transitioning to catch+scull (as other hand switches into lead hand position), and scull in flat catch position then roll+push. I can do them separately, check for accuracy in the intermediate catch position, then combine them!

Last edited by sclim : 12-15-2015 at 07:21 PM.
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  #34  
Old 12-16-2015
sclim sclim is offline
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Today evolved the drill further to full zero rotation face down position, hands in "11" position, then one hand starts to scull, as far forward into the front quadrant as flexibility allows. I use the other hand to scull on the return length, and maybe later I will do more repeats of the transitioning from the position "11" to sculling position. I used a flutter kick (ditching the pool-spaghetti). This is more convenient, allowing me to just launch into the drill without searching for the tool (or dealing with it at the end of the drill) and it makes the drill easier -- lifting up my legs well and helping forward progression. On the other hand, this aided forward propulsion hides the true contributing effect of the sculling action.
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  #35  
Old 12-16-2015
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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I tried to advance the bodyrotation relative to armpull, or delay the armpull relative to bodyrotation, so mure pulling/pushing is done on the high side.
Must say , it wasnt bad. Go to have look how far this can be shifted.
Together with a wide catch it gives a more flip¨one side, flip other side kind of stroke.
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  #36  
Old 12-16-2015
sclim sclim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
So . start scull flat, arm under shoulder, and scull to back while rotating the body to 45 degress. Pull and rotate your body past that planted arm, thats the idea.
Drive the rotation with hips/kick, and more or less with your sculling arm. The more solid you can make the water feel ,the better.
Going back a bit, could you clarify "arm under shoulder". Do you mean "as far forward as you can reach with elbow just beneath the surface"? Because if so, in flat position I can reach forward a little further than arm straight out to the side -- I can reach my upper arm a little bit forward of this line and drop my forearm down from my elbow before starting to rotate and pull/scull backwards. That's (i.e. elbow level somewhat ahead of shoulder level) the sculling position I'm trying to maintain for my drill, and it seems like a good idea
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  #37  
Old 12-17-2015
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sclim View Post
Today evolved the drill further to full zero rotation face down position, hands in "11" position, then one hand starts to scull, as far forward into the front quadrant as flexibility allows. I use the other hand to scull on the return length, and maybe later I will do more repeats of the transitioning from the position "11" to sculling position. I used a flutter kick (ditching the pool-spaghetti). This is more convenient, allowing me to just launch into the drill without searching for the tool (or dealing with it at the end of the drill) and it makes the drill easier -- lifting up my legs well and helping forward progression. On the other hand, this aided forward propulsion hides the true contributing effect of the sculling action.
How do swimmers create a catch when they are swimming then? if kicking hides the effect of the sculling action that you have been experiencing, how will you benefit when you start to swim?

Id' counter that sculling at speed teaches you more things as well. you just have to find those things.

Put on fins and find the water up front at even faster speeds...bet you'll learn something. :)
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USA Paralympic Triathlon Coach
Coach of 5 time USA Triathlon Triathlete of the Year, Kirsten Sass
Steel City Endurance, LTD
Fresh Freestyle

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  #38  
Old 12-17-2015
sclim sclim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
How do swimmers create a catch when they are swimming then? if kicking hides the effect of the sculling action that you have been experiencing, how will you benefit when you start to swim?

Id' counter that sculling at speed teaches you more things as well. you just have to find those things.

Put on fins and find the water up front at even faster speeds...bet you'll learn something. :)
I think you missed the very beginning of my sculling story. I am an abject beginner at sculling, and know nothing about how to scull! Or at least I was, and I did. In the last 4 days of doing merely a trivial amount of sculling I have learned a huge amount, and picked up some sense of sculling feel. It was in this context that I was concerned that I might confuse a surge of flutter-kick-derived acceleration with some suddenly randomly acquired ideal sculling action (and slow down my sculling mechanics education). Hence my desire to keep it simple at first and not kick, merely float my legs passively.

So I take your point that sculling at speeds other than those generated by sculling alone may generate fresh new insights. To be fair, maybe I'm at the point now where I have enough sculling sense that flutter kicking won't hurt me at all. It sure feels natural, and I sure hope so, because it's so convenient not needing the pool spaghetti that I like it this way.

Only inconvenience now is the breathing difficulty -- I can only breathe with fluttering only sculling one hand when I'm fresh. After that, it takes a 2 arm pull to get air, and disrupts my whole equilibrium for a while until I get set up again. I may start using a snorkel again, but that's a minor equipment management inconvenience.

BTW, I hope you noticed I used your "catch and push" drill as one of the inspirations to design my original one-sided sculling in the front quadrant drill, partly to try and imprint to get the sculling arm in the right catch position. Thanks for your past and ongoing excellent advice and encouragement.

Last edited by sclim : 12-17-2015 at 02:06 AM.
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  #39  
Old 12-17-2015
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sclim View Post
I think you missed the very beginning of my sculling story. I am an abject beginner at sculling, and know nothing about how to scull! Or at least I was, and I did. In the last 4 days of doing merely a trivial amount of sculling I have learned a huge amount, and picked up some sense of sculling feel. It was in this context that I was concerned that I might confuse a surge of flutter-kick-derived acceleration with some suddenly randomly acquired ideal sculling action (and slow down my sculling mechanics education). Hence my desire to keep it simple at first and not kick, merely float my legs passively.

So I take your point that sculling at speeds other than those generated by sculling alone may generate fresh new insights. To be fair, maybe I'm at the point now where I have enough sculling sense that flutter kicking won't hurt me at all. It sure feels natural, and I sure hope so, because it's so convenient not needing the pool spaghetti that I like it this way.

Only inconvenience now is the breathing difficulty -- I can only breathe with fluttering only sculling one hand when I'm fresh. After that, it takes a 2 arm pull to get air, and disrupts my whole equilibrium for a while until I get set up again. I may start using a snorkel again, but that's a minor equipment management inconvenience.

BTW, I hope you noticed I used your "catch and push" drill as one of the inspirations to design my original one-sided sculling in the front quadrant drill, partly to try and imprint to get the sculling arm in the right catch position. Thanks for your past and ongoing excellent advice and encouragement.
There is always room for more exploration! I'm glad the video was helpful for you as well...we had fun with that lesson. :)
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Suzanne Atkinson, MD
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USA Paralympic Triathlon Coach
Coach of 5 time USA Triathlon Triathlete of the Year, Kirsten Sass
Steel City Endurance, LTD
Fresh Freestyle

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  #40  
Old 12-20-2015
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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Hey Sclim, Sea hiker has an excellent blog serie about catch and ¨pull.
This guy has learnt a lot since his first shaky swim footage from 3-5 years ago.
The descriptions all roughly match my personal experiences with this stuff, so it must be good ;-)
He is originally from a TI background so its all pretty faniliar.
http://www.seahiker.com/9-ways-to-im...l-part-1-of-3/
http://www.seahiker.com/9-ways-to-im...l-part-2-of-3/
http://www.seahiker.com/9-ways-to-im...l-part-3-of-3/

youtube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjzkZl6FDAc
His medium tempo still rips through the water too much TI beginner style, but on the whole he is saying good things.

Since you understand Dutch by now,
swimming lessons from Kromowidjojo and Jacco Verhaeren
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaledn9sZWI (sculling from 4 min5)

Last edited by Zenturtle : 12-20-2015 at 06:36 PM.
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