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  #11  
Old 12-11-2015
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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She has to sell the VASA probably.
The guy is losing his high elbow very fast. He can also pull harder with a dropped elbow on a rope, just like anybody.
We are apes, not scullers.
Your dryland optimal EVF arm position is probably miles ahead of the avarage swimmers arm position you see swimming in the pool.
Watch what Sun Yang is doing in this department. Thats extreme.
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  #12  
Old 12-11-2015
s.sciame s.sciame is offline
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Hey Sclim,
if you're into sculling practice you may also like to try this drill:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JE4HtrpsrfE

Cheers,
Salvo
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  #13  
Old 12-11-2015
Richardsk Richardsk is offline
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Very nice. It's a pity the pool I swim at doesn't permit snorkels. Still. it should be possible to do quite a few sculls on one breath.
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  #14  
Old 12-11-2015
sclim sclim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s.sciame View Post
Hey Sclim,
if you're into sculling practice you may also like to try this drill:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JE4HtrpsrfE

Cheers,
Salvo
OK, it's interesting, I thought I might add a snorkel to my "One Side Sculling in Skate Position" drill, but I wondered if that was just being wimpy -- he's not only done that, but skipped the skate part and decided to do it alternating both hands without any body roll.

Advantage -- conveniently practices both hand sculling at the same time, and even forces you to stretch to achieve a vertical position with both forearms simultaneously -- no "cheating" by rolling and pretending the roll angle is part of your shoulder internal rotation.

Disadvantage -- no rolling action, so no opportunity to learn to coordinate the EVF catching movement with the roll position or action. But maybe that could be a good thing, learning the forearm position well in isolation (easy to correct faults) before integrating it into another body position element.

Thanks for the lead to the variation example to try out!
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  #15  
Old 12-11-2015
sclim sclim is offline
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OK guys, maybe I'm getting too far ahead of myself. Or maybe the lack of brain oxygen between breaths in sculling drill is finally taking its effect.

But I got to wondering. Is the point of the sculling drill to get a feel the water, whether on the hands or forearms or anywhere?

A large element of the associated sculling variants that have been posted seem to emphasise the vertical forearm aspect of the sculling position, which is in line with my general concept of sculling.

But there is definitely the added subtlety on getting the hand action just right, particularly in the figure-eight turnaround on each end of the side to side sweep.

So, in my mind there seems to be a contradiction -- we are building in an imprinting of the vertical forearm importance, but at the same time we are imprinting the importance of an independent hand action. Doesn't the latter defeat the purpose of the former?

I remember the fist swimming drill to overcome the beginner's early dependence on the open palm paddle at the expense of getting a good vertical forearm.

There are too many reliable recommendations from knowledgable sources for sculling drills to dismiss the benefit of sculling sensitivity. But is sculling or general water "feel", which is presumably the great benefit of sculling intrinsically tied into the integration of the independent hand action?

In other words, can I apply the benefit of the fist swimming drill somehow also to sculling? Can you make fist sculling work?

Too many questions, not enough oxygen. Like I said, I'm getting too far ahead of myself.


PS I re-visited the SwimSense EVF Drill URL that Salvo provided

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JE4HtrpsrfE

and I noticed a subtle distinction that I missed first time around. Salvo presented the drill in the context of my being interested in sculling practice -- but in review, nowhere in the video does the coach refer to it as "sculling." In fact, in reviewing the fine points of the drill, the coach emphasised that the hand should be held constantly in line with the forearm from fingertips to the elbow, with no collapsing, twisting or relative motion at the wrist; the hand-forearm unit is to be operated as a single rigid paddle which must be rotated or otherwise manipulated as a whole. Does this action make it significantly distinct from sculling? If so, is there any harm in introducing a slight sculling type wrist and hand action in whole stroke to initiate the transition from spear hand position to catch?

Last edited by sclim : 12-11-2015 at 05:15 PM.
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  #16  
Old 12-11-2015
sclim sclim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sclim View Post
If so, is there any harm in introducing a slight sculling type wrist and hand action in whole stroke to initiate the transition from spear hand position to catch?
Ha ha, in partial answer to my own question, going back to the video, yet again,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JE4HtrpsrfE

at 1:34 the coach says "don't let your wrist collapse -- maintain a straight pulling surface from finger-tips to elbow", but as he is actually saying the words, his demonstrator, who has done an excellent job so far during the demonstration in keeping that straight pulling surface from finger-tips to elbow does exactly what he is told not to do -- he collapses his wrist slightly in the turnaround from left hand extension to EVF catch!

So I guess it must be a pretty instinctive thing to do, and I suspect (I have no formal training, so this is a reckless shooting from the hip) that this instinctive semi sculling transition adds to the efficiency of the transition.

Last edited by sclim : 12-11-2015 at 10:26 PM.
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  #17  
Old 12-11-2015
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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If you want more switching between sculing and whole stroke, you can try slowmotion swimming , but make about 4 inch amplitude sculling motions during your pull.
This feels pretty funny.
You could suddenly fall into a sculling style that matches your stroke,and feel there sometimes is more pressure on the arm and sometimes less. like there are heavy parts floating in the water that you take along sometimes.
Best to find all the heavy floating parts in the water during your pull to get the most traction.
Like you said, the slight out and in at the front is the first one that feels quite natural, and this is a movement a lot of swimmers make without ever have read about the S-pull.
We are not making an oldfashioned exagerated s-pull, going very wide at the front almost like breastroke. The amplitude is much smaller, but there is some S-like movement in the stroke of the majority of good swimmers.
Terry and Shinji also have some S in their stroke. Dont go after that movement too strictly. Let the sculling tell you what is best.

I agree you shouldnt focus too much on a flapping hand kind of sculling, like coach Gadi is tended to do.
The wrist should be the focal center of your paddle, That is fairly rigid from elbow to fingers, and you should always be aware of the elbow position relative to the wrist.
If you are aware of this spatial relationship after ......hours of various sculling experience, you will be more aware when this position collapses to a dropped elbow.
And what is the result of that?
You will be smimming with a more patient lead arm.
If you pull too fast in relation to your bodyroll and other parts of the stroke, there will be a lot of water pressure on your paddle when you try to drop the hand and the forearm to a more vertical position.
This pressure on the start of the pull is impossible to maintain for us, so in no time we will be dropping the elbow again.
But....we have grown some awarenessm so we regognise when this happens and know we have ro delay the pull a bit and power the bodyroll more form core and kick while we gently bring the forearm down.
When the forearm is down, then we willl be able to simply hold it almost statically in that position while the lats pull the upperarm backwards, and the body is torqued over your paddle.
Thats the idea of `plant your arm and swing your body around it`
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQ8iw8q2F9U
On slow strokerates you might have fraction of a second to wait after full low body extension, and enjoy your short moment of glide, but at higher strokerates, you better start right away after extension, otherwise the planting process cant be blended smoothly anymore in the whole body movement that is going forward like a freighttrain.
This is speaking from my own personal ideal stroke roll model, thats isnt like Shinji´s but more like a hybrid between Natalie Coughlin and Shelly Ripple.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cb1Supmb2TQ
For people who strive to swim more like Shinji, the relative amount of glide might be a bit higher. The rough basics described here dont differ that much though in my view.

Most of what Karlyn Pipes Nielsen says in that small serie is true, but its more true for her than for the average swimmer.
After 10.000 hours of EVF swimming, she possibly could be even stronger in that position than in a dropped elbow position.
For others, it will take a lot of adaption to come close, but like ankle flexibility, every fraction of an inch toward optimal position is a fraction gained.

Emmett Hines really covers the subject quite exhaustive.
Read the get a grip series.
He spends wore words on the subject than any other, even the bottom up swim series which also is very good.
http://www.h2oustonswims.org/articles_whole.html
When you read it all, you will see its not a 5 min fix but a thing that can keep you busy for a long time.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 12-12-2015 at 09:56 PM.
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  #18  
Old 12-12-2015
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sclim View Post
Unless there is a compelling reason that makes obvious sense, I will stick with the "no toys unless for a specific reason" principle. That is, if I am gassing out quickly now (I am), it's because of lack of practice, maybe some lack of skill too, but these will come with more practice. I'm in it for the long haul. Interested in hearing about your enthusiasm for vertical sculling. Spread out the monotony? Or some specific skill it's good for?
you can replicate the relative angles of the hands/forearms/shoulders/ body in a balanced horizontal position, but using gravity as your aid. Hanging vertically with arms in a sculling position with elbows raised and armpits open, the body will "hang" directly below. you can feel the stretch of the lats, the angle of the shoulders, play with what plane the arm is in relative to the scapula, etc etc...while just hanging vertically and relaxing.

it's very relaxing too. Bob up and down in the water with a more aggressive or less aggressive scull. A powerful scull brings you up for air without kicking. ease back and you gently sink under.

It's quite fun. Unless you are against having fun...then don't do it. :)
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  #19  
Old 12-12-2015
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Originally Posted by sclim View Post

And then I watched the video. That is crap. There is no reason that the ergometer reading should suddenly drop in power, unless the demonstrator pulled less hard and fast on the cord when he dropped the elbow. In this dry land demo, the ergometer is directly measuring power generated by the arm pull, via the pull cords held in his hands, not power transferred to the (imaginary) water via the hopefully more efficient paddle.
.
What's happening is that the power of the stroke with the high eblow in that demo is being compressed into a shorter time duration. If you watch carefully, his cadence actually goes up when he drops his elbow, and his power is lower but for a longer time period. Total power output is likely very similar for the full stroke cycle.

She is correct about accessing power in the EVF position. With the elbow dropped, you've already given up a large part of the length of the lat without gaining any forward movement. THere is a stretch contraction relationship with muscle power. Dropping the elbow "unstretches" the lat, and there is no forward movement in that part of the stroke in front when the elbow drops. So you've just wasted power and given it up for an easier path through the water.


Additionally...she is no longer Karlyn Pipes Neilson, just Karlyn Pipes.
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Fresh Freestyle

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  #20  
Old 12-13-2015
sclim sclim is offline
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Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post

It's quite fun. Unless you are against having fun...then don't do it. :)
Haha! I got ya.

Also thanks for filling in the blanks. Apart from variety and fun, I may have identified a time and place where I can do it. The pool I recently located to has very limited time slots for lane swimming, often with crowding for the few or solitary lane allocated. Often the reason for the poor lane availability is that the lanes dividers are removed to allow a water exercise group to happen (populated by rather sedentary people my age), but sometimes there is a small space available that I may tread water or scull in and not take too much room when the swimming lane boots me out. I'll see if that's really feasible.
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