![]() |
|
FAQ | Members List | Calendar | Search | Today's Posts | Mark Forums Read |
![]() |
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#21
|
|||
|
|||
![]() Hello Ron,
Quote:
Maybe you can change your thought from "patient lead hand" a little more to "patient lead elbow" and give your hand/lower arm the chance to flow (with your swim speed) into the catch without producing any drag... But I'm sure the threshold from P to TI will vanish more and more... Best regards, Werner |
#22
|
|||
|
|||
![]() I'm not clear on what "P timing" is and how it differs from what we teach, but I think it's important to understand we teach consistent mechanics with variable stroke timing.
The consistent mechanics include: 1) Hand below body line at catch -- because this effortlessly lifts legs toward the surface, reducing drag, turbulence, and effort. 2) Hand and arm positioned so that initial pressure is toward the rear--so resultant force moves YOU forward. 3) When you begin press, apply pressure with patience, care and precision to ensure that your pressure converts at a high level into locomotion--not just commotion. I.E. Water molecules remain still, while you move forward. The variable stroke timing occurs through: 1) The proper--and proven most successful--learning process for swimming the TI way includes a period, usually 2 to 6 months, for learning and imprinting foundational skills, before progressing to advanced or exacting skills. Among the skills we put into the Mastery category is Catch-and-Press. During the foundation building phase we encourage developing TI swimmers to spend several months focused on HOLD (your place) with the lead hand, rather than actively pressing back. This allows time to unlearn 'ripping the hand" heedlessly through the water as Suzanne put it. It also promotes a highly integrated 'core-driven' (as opposed to shoulder-driven) stroke. This tends to promote a very patient lead hand. In fact, among the key Focal Points is to have lead hand be still for a moment after extension. I went through this myself and in retrospect it was invaluable in developing a stroke that remained effective as I advanced stroke timing later. 2) In the next phase of development, we strongly recommend stroke timing adjustments be made with pinpoint precision using the left button on the Tempo Trainer. Finally, I still practice HOLD at least 50% of the time. Doing so keeps my stroke effective when I'm in the final 100m of a 1.5k to 5k OW race and am shoulder to shoulder with someone else, and pushing to squeeze out whatever speed my body is capable of.
__________________
Terry Laughlin Head Coach & Chief Executive Optimist May your laps be as happy as mine. My TI Story |
#23
|
|||
|
|||
![]() I think a lot of people confuse holding water with holding the spearing arm outstretched until the other one enters.
Then you only have a fraction of a second to do: Quote:
Jumping on a moving train is difficult from a standstill position. From all the male TI coaches Terry has about the least dead extended arm time in his stroke. Its always moving. From perhaps a very short stop, to slow, to fast.Thats the opposite of stopping long and ripping to make up lost time. Last edited by Zenturtle : 08-11-2016 at 07:14 PM. |
#24
|
|||
|
|||
![]() I learned a lot from the replies on this thread. I literally thought that patient lead hand waited for the other spearing hand. I now understand that the patience is about getting to catch position, not about how long you patiently wait prior to ripping to the catch. I patiently catch in what I was calling P and I patiently wait but impatiently catch in my messed up version of TI.
I really appreciate the help. Ron |
#25
|
|||
|
|||
![]() None of us want you to stop long. When we have people work on the 'moment of stillness' Focal Point for lead hand; it's a small fraction of a second.
It also allows other hand to be poised above Mail Slot at same time.
__________________
Terry Laughlin Head Coach & Chief Executive Optimist May your laps be as happy as mine. My TI Story |
#26
|
|||
|
|||
![]() Quote:
Emphasizing a patient lead arm is necessary when trying to unlearn counterproductive habits. I spent most of my life flying airplanes, from single engine trainers to 850,000 lbs behemoths. Much of the windmill style swimming you see in far too many swimmers can be likened to a twin engine aircraft that has its propellers out of "sync". Yes, it'll get you where you're going but it'll be noisy, far less efficient, cost more fuel and be slower than you could otherwise be. Practicing a proper patient lead arm and switch allows both of your propellers to work together in an efficient manner while decreasing effort and fuel used. That's a good thing while swimming. Good luck with your continued swimming evolution. Aloha. |
#27
|
|||
|
|||
![]() Quote:
on olympics this days. That recovery momentum seems to be beneficial more then I thought before. Spite I do not use streight arm recovery, I see how it helps. I try to do the same with angled arm and, I think, it does the same job. One just has to change timing of everything. One has to be on the flank almost all the time. Recovery has to include extended opposite arm. Holding the water? Well... Personally, I do it putting hand down. Since I'm on the body side, hand points at the angle, to the lake/pool bottom. We all talk about catch, and have different things on our minds. For me, the catch is when one gets perpendicular forearm and prepares to use it as an anchor. Why would I catch the water and keep going further? I am on some water layer and it is fine. Hand set down is my "catch", if I under- stand correctly. Arm should not be bent, but streight. Shoulder elevated in scapula, if possible. Head hidden. From that low drag possition, one might build further. Hardly wait further posts. Also, cannot say how different Terry's and mine seeings on the subject are, and how the goal stays to be exactelly the same. Last edited by fooboo : 08-12-2016 at 05:29 AM. |
#28
|
|||
|
|||
![]() I've ready a few things about what people are seeing in olympic swimmers. Oddly, it doesn't match what I am seeing in the same swimmers.
Some prominent things I notice... -The incredible quiet & still ness that occurse underwater. Not that there is no movement, but there is minimal movement...just enough to get it done -Glide/stillness out front. EVERY swimmer in every stroke enters and pauses in front...there is a moment or more of stillness. Maybe 1 swimmer in every 3-4 heats moves through this moment without pausing. -Many cases of the slowest tempo being the fastest swimmer, especially n the breaststroke -At least one case of a single kick fly that no one commented on in the mens 200 fly prelim, 1st heat winner -every swimmer in every stroke swims on tracks...arms are parallel to the direction of travel with not only no crossover, but nothing even close to crossover. Arms dead parallel. -Streamlining is prominent in every stroke as well. -arm entries in freestyle...all of them spear and extend forward underwater, and all of them have a full extension up front accompanied by the pause. Their extension occurs under water not above. No one does not extend, but many recreationals wimmers lack the extension.
__________________
Suzanne Atkinson, MD Level 3 USAT Coach USA Paralympic Triathlon Coach Coach of 5 time USA Triathlon Triathlete of the Year, Kirsten Sass Steel City Endurance, LTD Fresh Freestyle |
#29
|
||||
|
||||
![]() Quote:
You are correct about the momentum of recovery arm, but you're a bit lost in windmilling, which it's not. The "TI and Professional catch" (as described by Ron Bear) is not binary, and you certainly outline the near infinite number of positions and possibilities the low side arm can be in from extension to catch to rotation and kick, see: post #63 But that is the problem that most fall victim to, controlling timing from the outside in and trying to make it an "either - or" solution. I find those that go into too much detail and complexity in explanation, don't have a solid grasp of what's happening and are mostly confused; although their intentions are good. Suzanne and Terry noted catch timing most simply and succinctly, "When you begin press, apply pressure with patience, care and precision to ensure that your pressure converts at a high level into locomotion--not just commotion". In short resist the impulse to pull and moving water back, use minimal movement holding as much water as possible. Allow the timing of the limbs to happen naturally from the inside out based on height, skill and rate of turnover. Stuart |
#30
|
|||
|
|||
![]() Quote:
thinking about. Endelessly. Quote:
I never pull. As in a post above, about olympics and stillness underwater, I tend to do almost nothing. But... what do you all mean when you say "hold the water"? If I get proper 90 degree vertical catch early, I ruin every notion of low drag. What I do? I extend arm, set hand down and wait for recovery of the ather arm. Armpit is open as shoulder is extended. I want to be in the most optimal low drag position as long as I can. When I rotate opposite, my arm stays extended and I do not catch anything. I do it, since, going other flank, I may keep an elbow high and get late vertical forearm absolutelly vertical. Then, only then I run muscles to let that vertical forearm stay in place. I might be all wrong! Regarding all this, swimming backstroke, I do all parts just as Boomer wants his swimmer to do. On flank, heavy recovery, catch. Long time I try to just turn on the other side and do the same, but it is not the same. Without furtehr thinkering, I could swim faster backstroke, if I'd like. It proves me I'm correct. Just want to do the same in freestyle. Yes, please, make post as long as you could. I like to read everything on this crucial subject. |
![]() |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|