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  #21  
Old 12-13-2015
sclim sclim is offline
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Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
What's happening is that the power of the stroke with the high eblow in that demo is being compressed into a shorter time duration. If you watch carefully, his cadence actually goes up when he drops his elbow, and his power is lower but for a longer time period. Total power output is likely very similar for the full stroke cycle.

She is correct about accessing power in the EVF position. With the elbow dropped, you've already given up a large part of the length of the lat without gaining any forward movement. THere is a stretch contraction relationship with muscle power. Dropping the elbow "unstretches" the lat, and there is no forward movement in that part of the stroke in front when the elbow drops. So you've just wasted power and given it up for an easier path through the water.


Additionally...she is no longer Karlyn Pipes Neilson, just Karlyn Pipes.
In your second paragraph, respectfully, I have to be convinced.

Not about the more efficient paddle position of the vertical forearm in the water (I understand and agree with that), but if you are saying that the stretching of the lats in the high elbow position results in more lats power, therefore subjects on the pull rig demonstrated can pull harder on the cord in the high elbow/vertical forearm position than the low elbow/horizontal forearm position, then I disagree.

When I do a two handed hang from a bar with my palms forward, to mimic the swimming position (albeit rotated into an upright orientation) in the inefficient dropped elbow configuration, which corresponds to the natural vertical forearm in the bar pull-up exercise, I can easily hold my weight when I'm pulled up, say with the top of my head level with the bar. Now if I try to rotate my elbows outwards, that is to say attempt to internally rotate at the shoulders while keeping my head at the same level at the bar, I don't get very far. My lats, being stretched, may indeed be capable of more strength, I don't know, I can't tell. But it is the limitation of internal rotation strength in my shoulders that stops this attempted adjustment of configuration way before my forearms reach the horizontal position, which would correspond to a vertical forearm if I were in the horizontal swimming position.

I know we are dealing with much larger forces here -- each arm bearing 50% of the force of my body weight in the pull up exercise, not including the force required to accelerate upwards. But I'm typical of most untrained swimmers, so despite possibly and theoretically more latissimus force available in the high elbow position while swimming, it is the weakness of shoulder internal rotation which constitutes the weak link in the musculo-skeletal chain which makes pulling on a rope VASA style so much weaker in the high elbow position.

I know the disparity would be much lessened once I trained my shoulder internal rotation muscles, with the VASA machine or home elastic straps specifically using the high elbow/vertical forearm position, or actual vertical forearm swimming. However the internal rotators of the shoulder are so much smaller than the latissimi that I doubt that the internal rotators could be developed to the degree that the greater strength of the latissimus muscles could be pragmatically utilised by actually demonstrating a stronger pull force on the rope in the high elbow position compared to the dropped elbow position. For me I can't imagine ever getting strong (in my shoulder internal rotators) enough to pull up with internally rotated shoulders into a horizontal forearm position.

In any case, the real usefulness of the high elbow in swimming (a point which I fully get and agree with) is in the greater surface area of the whole paddle perpendicular to the direction in the water it is travelling through (leading potentially to greater force transfer), which is not exactly what is being demonstrated by the pull cords, so pointing to a purported increase in power generated on a cord driven ergometer is missing the point, and not helpful to the student.
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  #22  
Old 12-13-2015
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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I totally agree with you Sclim.
The stretch in the muscles when extending and holding that shouldercomplex extended even when goning to EVF sort of position ads a stetch in the elastic tissue that wants to ¨pull back that shouldercomplex (attached to trunc etc), but the distance that elastic band to bounce back is not that great, so you have say 1-? inch of spring rebound that you can use, but after that the musvles hacve to take over again and do everything without help from the elastc rebound.
But you know on the pullup bar Sclin, that its easier to hold tight unto a certain position is also easier than actually pulling yourself up.
Thats why its important to get as much as EVH as possible before you pull back.<
Than a lot of the small mucles that keep the paddle from roration back into a dropped elbow position only have to hold on onto thei established position and dont have to do the actuale pullup movement.
So,
stretch shouldr complex in extension,
set the paddle, (in the well known scull position)
let the muscletissue rebound together with some extra mucleforce,
pull trhough holding your paddle vertical with the small shoulder muscles,
pull the paddle back with lats and body rotation.

If you can rotate bottom up this makes the whole process more of a timing problem than a force problem if you can slow it down.
The trick is to blend it all in perfectly into the bodyroll that is the eternal moving pendulum that cant be disturbed.
A good way is to slow it all down, but under a certain speed, the momentum of the bodyroll gets weak and you loose that flywheel where the whole stroke is attached to. Thats why I dont like too much slow motion swimming in one go.
Can improve your sense of balance, but destroys your sense of rhythm.
So doing short lenghts of higher effort while trying to fit everything in has to be on the menu too.
Takes a hell of focus. But if it all comes together the rewards are great. Be carefull. its addictive.

Actualy almost the whole controversy between SS and TI centers around this aspect.
Where do you put your priorities?
Staying streanlined as long as possible making it harder to properly set up your paddle in the short window of opportunity that is available, or make a small compromise in streamline at the front by braking the arm streamline while setting up the paddle so more propulsion can be blended in smooth and strong.
The best compromise is dependent on strokerate, arm/shoulder flexibility, arm strength, and personal preference for stroke style.

I think this is what Susanne is talking about.
I dont know why the guy is sculling so extreme. Never tried this myself, but it seems an interesting way to test the straight arm pull against the slight s shape pull....
I want to look cool in the pool so dont do this silly stuff, but if you could figure out the outcome of this age old debate...
Let ne know what you think is the best path to pull...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1NaWPyNtdk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLyfwqJgUTw
Now you know where Phelps gets his s pull from. He is the fly guy.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 12-13-2015 at 01:47 PM.
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  #23  
Old 12-13-2015
Danny Danny is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
Let ne know what you think is the best path to pull...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1NaWPyNtdk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLyfwqJgUTw
Now you know where Phelps gets his s pull from. He is the fly guy.
This looks like it's really hard work, but I think it was Charles who once claimed that there is a surprising amount of technique involved, and it's not that hard with the right technique. I tried it once myself and got tired real fast, which I guess means that I've got lousy technique, I'm old, or both.

Part of the technique must have to do with timing. Your body is going to bob up and down due to buoyancy, and if you time your pull to this bobbing motion you don't have to work as hard.

Last edited by Danny : 12-13-2015 at 05:18 PM.
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  #24  
Old 12-13-2015
sclim sclim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
But you know on the pullup bar Sclin, that its easier to hold tight unto a certain position is also easier than actually pulling yourself up.
Thats why its important to get as much as EVH as possible before you pull back.<
Than a lot of the small mucles that keep the paddle from roration back into a dropped elbow position only have to hold on onto thei established position and dont have to do the actuale pullup movement.
So,
stretch shouldr complex in extension,
set the paddle, (in the well known scull position)
let the muscletissue rebound together with some extra mucleforce,
pull trhough holding your paddle vertical with the small shoulder muscles,
pull the paddle back with lats and body rotation.
OK, I was on the edge of this insight while I was puzzling through my earlier reply to recall what I thought I was doing and what I thought was happening with my arm positions during my attempts to achieve the EVF or plain old VF (Vertical Forearm) as early in the stroke as possible (I'm trying to accommodate the distinction between the two terms as far as I understand how Fooboo sees it) mostly (I thought) to capture the advantage of greater paddle efficiency for a greater percentage of the duration of the full stroke. But I see now that I didn't actually formulate it as clearly as you have -- that achieving the EVF position takes less shoulder internal rotator muscle strength than acquiring VF on the fly after you have begun to apply the very powerful muscles of shoulder flexion.

I see now that if it is merely clumsiness rather than non-existent strength that prevents me from achieving this cleanly and consistently (I think I sometimes get it almost right) while I'm practicing EVF catch and anchor, there is still some hope for me lol.

Last edited by sclim : 12-13-2015 at 10:08 PM.
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  #25  
Old 12-13-2015
sclim sclim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
I want to look cool in the pool so dont do this silly stuff, but if you could figure out the outcome of this age old debate...
Let ne know what you think is the best path to pull...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1NaWPyNtdk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLyfwqJgUTw
Now you know where Phelps gets his s pull from. He is the fly guy.
I don't fully understand your point.

The guy with the extreme lateral scull at the beginning of his pull (is this actually Michael Phelps?) certainly has the most powerful pull, look how high out of the water he gets, compared to the woman. But this might be because he is more gifted with total muscle strength, or better co-ordination and efficiency of catch and pull timing than the woman who does a much more modest initial lateral sculling movement while initiating her catch. In other words, it's hard to read into this comparison direct evidence for the benefit of sculling action during the catch.

As for Early Verticality of Forearm (or, in this case, more precisely, Perpendicularity of Forearm to the direction of stroke movement) to my eye the male butterflyer doesn't quite get the forearm perpendicular early -- only by the time his elbow is at chin or even shoulder level, while the woman actually achieves this position by the time her elbows are at mid face level, I think. But maybe this is not relevant if your point was to compare/contrast the degree of sculling action in the catch.
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  #26  
Old 12-14-2015
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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Just try it if you want to know it.
This only works to a certain degree if you havent developed the skills and strange local strengths, but its better than nothing.
I havent tried it. Can imagine the arm moves so fast in this exercise that its difficult to add some precisesly controlled sculling, but you can possibly feel a pattern that comes naturally.
Eeehh naturally, no dont do things that come naturally, thats the dropped elbow...but thats nort giving good resistance,,,,so maybe you do come to a better paddle shape naturally doing this exercise....just try it.

Here an example of a pretty good and smooth body to whole arm transition
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7sAPvqyal4
Looks good in side view.

And here a stop and go handfocussed leftarm movement, even at a elevated strokerate.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmIRobhZw-I
If you focus on your hand-forearm blade you are less likely to go this route.

Its amazing to see how everybody enters too much near the centerline.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 12-14-2015 at 05:46 PM.
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  #27  
Old 12-14-2015
sclim sclim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
Eeehh naturally, no dont do things that come naturally, thats the dropped elbow...
Haha, too true!

OK, taking all your recent advice in context, wanting to experiment more, but also realising that concentrating on one new skill at a time was probably more productive, I put in more one arm EVF sculling in skate position with a small pool spaghetti stub between my knees. It's working better now, and I'm getting the feel for it. I even got some scapular ache, so I'm either sculling harder (unlikely to hurt the scapular muscles considering the forces involved, I guess) or, more likely, pushing the limits of my flexibility now with really extending the arm forward at the shoulder (rather than sideways), trying to keep the elbow up, and forcing the scapula up as a result.

Some leakage of the new sculling skill into the initiation of the catch is starting to occur. I think I was already sort of doing it on my right, so now it is merely more secure on the right. But I am starting to get it on my left. Funny, but sometimes I don't get it at all on the left, and sometimes it just happens quite nicely. Now that I'm reflecting on my experience today, I realise I had difficulty slowing down the stroke -- perhaps I didn't really think to slow it down, but it was something like the phenomenon of when I was anxious about succeeding I tended to rush things.

Having said that, when I managed to get a sequence of successful left and right sculling-catches in a row, the feeling was quite magnificent (of denseness of water within the catch), and the distance per stroke actually increased noticeably.

Last edited by sclim : 12-14-2015 at 05:44 PM.
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  #28  
Old 12-14-2015
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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Great to hear that Sclim. How much time do you spent on this sculling? I usually only do 25 or 50 m, but you start to motivate me to do more...
About your shoulder.
Do you ever do backstroke?
Great for shoulder trouble prevention . And builds an awesome core too.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 12-14-2015 at 05:56 PM.
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  #29  
Old 12-14-2015
sclim sclim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
Great to hear that Sclim. How much time do you spent on this sculling? I usually only do 25 or 50 m, but you start to motivate me to do more...
About your shoulder.
Do you ever do backstroke?
Great for shoulder trouble prevention . And builds an awesome core too.
Today my session went something like:

100m whole stroke x 5 sets

25m Right sided sculling while in Left lead hand skate position, small pool spaghetti stub between knees -- I still got some leg drop but it forced me to put some effort into the sculling and focus on balance to get some degree of forward balance. Focus on keeping sculling elbow as far ahead as possible, and as high as possible. I find I now can catch a breath on the side merely by sculling harder -- I don't have to stroke with the lead hand.

turn around and return 25m Left sided sculling while in Right lead hand skate position. Now fatiguing, not nearly so easy to do one hand sculling breath, now also pulling with the lead hand to breathe!

100m whole stroke x 3 sets

25m Right sided sculling in Left skate position

5-6 minutes of vertical body sculling in the deep end with no leg movement, coming up periodically for air using more forceful sculling action only. (New skill tried today -- surprisingly successful, for me).

25m Left sided sculling in Right skate position

Finished off with one more 100m whole stroke.


No, I've never done back stroke. Don't know how.

Last edited by sclim : 12-14-2015 at 06:36 PM.
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  #30  
Old 12-14-2015
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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Doesnt look like too much.

sculling in skate ?
So you are sculling on the high side of your body? You should be front sculling at your low side or flat if thats too difficult.
Backend sculling can be done on the high side.
Doing everything flat is better than sculling at the wrong bodyroll side.
Ideally your sculling arm position matches your bodyroll angle at that moment of the stroke.
Stay as close as possible to the normal stroke.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 12-14-2015 at 10:03 PM.
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