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  #11  
Old 06-03-2015
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CoachStuartMcDougal CoachStuartMcDougal is offline
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Hi Lloyd,

I didn't expect offering a suggestion I would be the bearer of bad news. Slicing recovery arm in elbow deep before firing kick is a difficult, but also excellent practice. The difference between slicing in mid forearm deep and elbow deep is just a few inches.

Stuart
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  #12  
Old 06-03-2015
lloyddinma lloyddinma is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal View Post
Hi Lloyd,

I didn't expect offering a suggestion I would be the bearer of bad news. Slicing recovery arm in elbow deep before firing kick is a difficult, but also excellent practice. The difference between slicing in mid forearm deep and elbow deep is just a few inches.

Stuart
Hey Coach Stuart!!

ofcourse I know you were offering a suggestion, a knowlegable one too. I was just pulling your leg!

With blogs/threads there is always a loss in communication. Nothing like face-to face element. I like learning and improving. Will be shooting for "elbow deep".

Thanks
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  #13  
Old 06-04-2015
CoachEricDeSanto CoachEricDeSanto is offline
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I have been struggling with this for some time. My conclusions are:

1. A later kick is far more natural. As coach Stuart suggests, the muscle firing is easier. The timing feels more natural to do.

2. Every time I get swimmers to kick earlier, they can hold one stroke per length less at the same tempo and heart rate. It is more efficient. But it takes a lot longer to learn.

There are two confounding variables here. Most people who kick late, in my experience, don't kick as well as Coach Mandy. Most of the time the kick is late because swimmers take time to wind up before kicking. As Mandy's video shows, a good kick moves from center to forward. The rotation causes all the "wind up" needed. A true wind up motion (pulling the foot back before kicking) increases drag and slows the swimmer. That may be the true cause of the difference.

I believe some of the difference is also related ankle flexibility and the pulse power thread elsewhere on this forum. IF you have very flexible ankles and get some forward push from your feet, an early kick separates the forward power from the kick from the power from the anchor and rotation. This lengthens the time force is applied to the water. Longer force times causes less acceleration and deceleration each stroke (more stable speed within each cycle). More stable speed causes less effort. If your kick does not provide much forward speed (which is far more common), then this argument does not apply.

Bottom line, as always, take a couple weeks to train yourself to do both timing options and test them. If you find that one timing pattern is better than the other for you, stick with it. If not, go with the more natural pattern.
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  #14  
Old 06-04-2015
lloyddinma lloyddinma is offline
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A true wind up motion (pulling the foot back before kicking) increases drag and slows the swimmer. That may be the true cause of the difference.

Hi CoachEric,

Just making sure. When you say "foot back" do you refer to the habit of raising the foot up before kicking? I ask because I was elbow deep drilling yesterday and noticed this habit emerge when I slowed my Tempo Trainer.
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  #15  
Old 06-04-2015
Tom Pamperin Tom Pamperin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal View Post
Hey Tom,

If you slice in recovery arm elbow deep *before* firing the kick, this winds up the lats even more so such that the hips fire naturally, easily kicking from the glutes (rump) and not the quads (knees). A kick too early, loses that core connection and more often than not, early kick triggers too much knee bend from the quads (not the glutes) taking over.

Stuart
Thanks--I'll try that. Maybe try to shoot some video of my kick, too; it'd be nice to see it for myself!
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  #16  
Old 06-04-2015
Tom Pamperin Tom Pamperin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachEricDeSanto View Post
Most of the time the kick is late because swimmers take time to wind up before kicking. As Mandy's video shows, a good kick moves from center to forward. The rotation causes all the "wind up" needed. A true wind up motion (pulling the foot back before kicking) increases drag and slows the swimmer. That may be the true cause of the difference.
I used a "wind up" when learning 2BK timing (it was very helpful for that), though I think that I've tamed it some since then. But:

Obviously, if the kick moves from center to forward, then it has to come back to center at some point for the next kick. When does (should) that motion happen? And how would it be different from a wind-up? (I'm guessing you mean a wind-up that goes behind the center position is bad--would a "wind-up" that moves from forward position back to center still be bad?

Any thoughts?
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  #17  
Old 06-05-2015
CoachEricDeSanto CoachEricDeSanto is offline
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Hi Tom,
There are two main differences between a wind up and the correct leg set up movement. A wind up tends to occur at the knee and uses energy.

the correct movement is a straight leg return. For many people, the body rotation will naturally allow the leg to return. As you roll from your left side to your right side, if you leave your feet still in the water, your right leg will end up slightly behind you.

I like using a little energy and the "no place like home" focal point. The kick motion ends with squeezing the legs together. This streamlines the body and prevents winding up. The risk is that the legs cannot stabilize rotation so you have to be really stable with your legs squeezed together.
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  #18  
Old 06-05-2015
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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Hey, kicking experts,

Do you also find kicking from the mid core without much kneebend requires some work and kicking from the knee is the easy option?

For me, making the right aquatic movements feels like making the hard weird movements (high elbow, kicking from the deep core), where the usual beginners movements are the easy way (dropped elbow, kicking from the knee)
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  #19  
Old 06-05-2015
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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Hello Zenturtle,

Quote:
Hey, kicking experts,
... addressed not to me, so forget this post...

Quote:
Do you also find kicking from the mid core without much kneebend requires some work and kicking from the knee is the easy option?
Yes, very right because bending the knee in forward movement is done all day long when walking (or on stairs or ladders when moving upward). But this fruit is hanging low... and is rotten...

Jealous that you've already hardwired the right movments. (I'm struggling around with learning Stuart's drill... )

Best regards,
Werner
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  #20  
Old 06-05-2015
Danny Danny is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
Hey, kicking experts,

Do you also find kicking from the mid core without much kneebend requires some work and kicking from the knee is the easy option?

For me, making the right aquatic movements feels like making the hard weird movements (high elbow, kicking from the deep core), where the usual beginners movements are the easy way (dropped elbow, kicking from the knee)
When you bend your knee, you make your leg shorter so moving it through the water becomes easier. With a straight leg kick the surface of the leg will move more water and is a more effective way of changing your bodies direction or orientation.

I find this tendency really noticeable when doing a dolphin kick with both legs at the same time. In butterfly the temptation is to bend your knees to get your head up out of the water, because bending your knees causes your legs to sink. When you keep your leg straight during the kick, your legs don't drop and the impact on body position is quite different. However, the kicking is done with your abs and you can really feel it in your stomach.
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